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In this conversation, Robert Scheer and Nolan Higdon dig into the contradictions at the heart of America’s elite class — the philanthropists, technocrats, and political leaders who publicly preach democracy, equality, and women’s rights while privately orbiting Jeffrey Epstein long after his crimes were known. Higdon walks through the documents, the lies, the intelligence connections, and the cultural implications of a scandal that refuses to fade. What emerges is a portrait of a society where wealth shields wrongdoing, institutions collapse under their own corruption, and the public is left to pick up the pieces.
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Highlights
- “Who are these people?” Scheer asks — the same question societies fail to ask before they collapse.
- The Epstein files show one thing clearly: we never really knew the people running our world.
- Gates, Clinton, Summers — the public masks don’t match the private behavior. Wealth corrodes the soul.
- What the files reveal is “as ugly as it gets”: exploitation of the vulnerable by the powerful, wrapped in philanthropy and PR.
- These same elites still show up at conferences to “save humanity.” The hypocrisy is grotesque.
- Higdon: Accountability can’t be partisan. It must be a class reckoning.
- Summers is already shamed out of public life. The Clintons are being forced to testify. But that’s just the start.
- Higdon: “Reform is a dirty word.” Some institutions — including the CIA — need to be broken up and rebuilt.
- The real danger is staying stuck in partisan finger‑pointing while the system that enabled Epstein stays intact.
- Scheer: Access journalism helped create this mess. Journalists got seduced by proximity to power.
- Independent reporting — not PR‑driven access — is the only way out.
Rushed Transcript Edited for Clarity and Readability
Robert Scheer: Hi, this is Robert Scheer with another edition of Scheer Intelligence, where the intelligence goes to my guest. Today I’m joined once again by Dr. Nolan Higdon. He teaches at UC Santa Cruz and runs the Gaslight Gazette, where he’s been doing some of the most serious work on the Epstein scandal — the Epstein ledger, the files, the whole thing. His latest piece, “Decoding Epstein,” is up now on ScheerPost.
I can’t think of a bigger story. To me, this is Caligula-level stuff. It feels like the defining scandal of the late American empire — bipartisan, trans‑ideological, drenched in wealth and power, and revealing something rotten at the core of our culture. Not for voyeuristic reasons, though the spectacle is certainly there, but because it exposes what late‑stage capitalist male hegemony — the Silicon Valley bro culture, the elite networks — really looks like. This is our culture. So tell me what you’re seeing.
Nolan Higdon: I think that’s a fair assessment of what’s emerging from the so‑called Epstein files. For decades, people who criticized concentrated power were mocked — “Oh, the wealthy don’t collude, they don’t coordinate.” But these documents show something very different. People at the highest levels of government, finance, academia, and international law absolutely do communicate, coordinate, and share interests. And Epstein was a central node in that network. We’re getting a rare peek behind the curtain.
One of the most striking things is how global this is — finance, academia, government, industry, intelligence. And it’s also striking how other countries are responding. Some are actually trying to hold people accountable. In the U.S., the attitude seems to be: “Well, there were some bad actors, nothing we can do.” That says a lot.
Robert Scheer: I don’t think that’s going to hold. This is the gift that keeps giving — not in a good way, but in the sense that it keeps revealing who these people really are. Why don’t we have adults watching the store? Where are the restraints that used to exist, even in bourgeois society?
I mean, Nelson Rockefeller had his scandal, but it was one‑on‑one, adult, and treated as a scandal. These people were literally flying on something they themselves called the “Lolita Express.” They knew what they were doing. And yet they remained advisers, leaders, respected figures. Tell me more about what you’re finding in these files — you’ve been on this longer than almost anyone.
Nolan Higdon: One thing I try to do with the Gaslight Gazette is give people factual information in a sea of falsehoods. Right now social media is full of fake images and fake documents. So I wanted to create a place where people can read about these things and click directly to the real documents.
My site is nolanhigden.substack.com — the Epstein Ledger is the latest, and all my Epstein work is under “Decoding Epstein.”
A big theme emerging is that many of the people now getting scrutiny may not have committed crimes, but they lied about their relationships with Epstein. Chomsky said it was one meeting — turns out it was a long, deep relationship. Secretary Gutnik said he met Epstein once and was disgusted — turns out it was much more. Elon Musk said he refused Epstein’s invitations — now we know he was seeking them, and even gave Epstein a tour of SpaceX.
The lying is what keeps fueling public outrage. And remember: there are still three million more DOJ files we haven’t seen, plus all the financial records, plus the Epstein estate’s files. We’re only seeing a sliver.
Robert Scheer: Let’s talk about these people. Henry Rosovsky — dean at Harvard, the guy who opened the door to Epstein — I knew him. I respected him. What was he doing? Was it the money? Was it an old‑boys degeneracy? And then someone like Lawrence Summers — a man I consider loathsome for his role in the banking deregulation that robbed millions of their homes. He didn’t break the law because he changed the law. But what was he doing in Epstein’s world? Why did he think he could get away with it? He wasn’t even that wealthy compared to the trillionaire class.
Why were all these people excited to be in Epstein’s network?
Nolan Higdon: Summers is a great example. He called Epstein his “wingman” while trying to pressure what appears to be a graduate student into a romantic relationship. He made disparaging comments about women. And for people on the left, one of the more revealing emails is Summers complaining that his own kids supported Bernie Sanders — it drove him nuts.
But this is why it’s important to remember: the sex crimes are part of the story, but not the whole story. Epstein was a middleman for many activities — academia, intelligence, industry. The media has tried to isolate each piece: “He was wealthy,” “He was smart,” “He was just curious.” But if you read his emails, he doesn’t come off as particularly intelligent. What he was good at was connecting people — and leveraging those connections.
We see him trying to blackmail Bill Gates. We see him trying to neutralize whistleblowers on behalf of business interests. We see him connecting Mossad and U.S. intelligence figures. He was a broker of influence, access, and leverage — and sex crimes were one part of that.
Nolan Higdon: We see Epstein trying to neutralize whistleblowers on behalf of business interests, including people connected to Russia and New York. We also see him trying to connect intelligence figures — Mossad, U.S. intelligence, others. He’s a middleman for a wide range of activities, and the sex crimes are only one part of that.
One thing that stood out in the document release is that the government said some files won’t be released because they relate to “torture.” That implies there are documents involving torture, which raises serious questions.
Robert Scheer: I hadn’t noticed that. What does that mean — documents connecting a convicted sex offender to torture? What do we know?
Nolan Higdon: Not much, because the files are heavily redacted. But there are hints. One email shows Epstein and an anonymous person discussing torturing a young girl. Another shows Epstein asking whether someone had “done the torture.” There are references to videos given to Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell that he described as torture he “couldn’t handle,” and he demanded no more. That’s all we know — the rest is blacked out.
Robert Scheer: So how do you proceed? There’s a feeding frenzy now. Is this being managed? Manipulated? How much is blacked out? They even exposed victims’ names — whether by mistake or not — and lawyers are in court trying to stop further releases to protect them. For people who haven’t dropped everything to follow this, what are the biggest revelations so far?
Nolan Higdon: The first major revelation is Epstein’s “second act.” After his early‑2000s plea deal — the so‑called sweetheart deal — we now have the memo from federal prosecutor Alex Acosta. It shows Acosta had more than enough evidence to put Epstein away. Yet Epstein walked with a light sentence and sex‑offender registration. Acosta reportedly told a reporter he was instructed that Epstein “belonged to intelligence” and to back off. He now denies that, but legal experts agree: the evidence was there. So everything Epstein did after 2007 is partly on the federal government.
The second revelation involves Donald Trump. For reasons we don’t fully understand, someone in the government during Trump’s second term compiled accusations from the Epstein files into a single spreadsheet. It’s heavily redacted, but it lists several allegations made against Trump. Some were investigated and found unsupported, but the redactions make it impossible to know the full picture.
The third revelation is a confidential human source who told the government that Alan Dershowitz, Jeffrey Epstein, Sheldon Adelson, and Ghislaine Maxwell were connected in some way to Israeli intelligence. This is supported by other documents, including Epstein’s close relationship with former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, who once oversaw Israeli intelligence.
Robert Scheer: Let me step back. What I see in these papers is a deeper question: Where are we as a culture? These crimes targeted some of the most vulnerable people — often poor, often underage, legally protected. This is exploitation at its most extreme. There’s a decadence here, a deep decadence. And I think it will stick. It’s like the fall of Rome — the decadence becomes the story.
These elites constantly tell us they’re saving the world. Bill Clinton, Elon Musk, Lawrence Summers — Summers, who once said women aren’t suited for science — all claiming to champion democracy, women’s rights, progress. And yet they tolerated Epstein long after the charges were known.
You’re also an academic. What does this say about our culture? This isn’t a few bad apples. This is the ruling circle — the high‑tech elite, the scientific elite, the political elite — across Democrats, Republicans, even a few idealistic leftists. What does this tell you?
Nolan Higdon: This has been building for decades. Since the 1970s, the cultural ethos shifted away from democracy and the common good toward capitalism, wealth accumulation, and a hedonistic lifestyle. Capitalism benefits the few at the expense of the many. These documents show women treated as objects, but they also show elites trading secrets, manipulating markets, and operating a two‑tier system.
Think of the Robinhood scandal — average people coordinated to move a stock, and the app shut them down. But elites collude every day. The system works for them, not for everyone else.
As a culture, we face two paths: deep cynicism or an opportunity to rebuild institutions. For 40–50 years, the mantra has been “what’s good for capital is good for the people.” If you suggested taxing billionaires, you were accused of “punishing wealth.” But in a capitalist society, money is power — and billionaires shouldn’t be allowed to consolidate that power.
Robert Scheer: It’s worse than “punishing wealth.” They say you’re punishing the “creators of wealth.” Bill Clinton deregulated the internet and Wall Street. Summers dismantled the New Deal protections and then got rewarded with Harvard’s presidency and Wall Street money. These people are fully embedded in the money culture.
And they’re not giving up power. Bezos is gutting the Washington Post. Gates owns huge swaths of farmland. These people have us by the throat. And it’s not just Trump — he may be the least enthusiastic participant in this. It spans liberals, conservatives, religious right, Silicon Valley, Wall Street. It raises the question: Is this a diseased culture? Is this late‑stage capitalism rotting from within?
Nolan Higdon: Exactly. And the exploitation has to be wrapped in altruistic language because naked greed wouldn’t be accepted. So Gates presents himself as saving the world. Bezos claims to care about democracy. Summers and the Democrats posture as anti‑racist and anti‑sexist. But it’s propaganda. On the right, they wrap themselves in religion and “working‑class values.” But the Epstein files show they’re all playing for the same team — just with different rhetoric.
Breaking that cultural control — over media, information, narratives — is essential. People think they’re choosing between an idealistic liberal and a righteous conservative. But the files show both sides are part of the same elite network.
Robert Scheer: And the PR spin won’t save them. The more we learn, the clearer it becomes that the system can’t be marginally reformed. Money dominates politics. These people control access to power. They’re not remorseful — only inconvenienced.
Your writing gets at the systemic nature of this. This corruption is baked into the model. The internet was never a free‑market experiment — it was built by the defense apparatus. Companies like In‑Q‑Tel funded Palantir and Google. Monopoly power was granted as a bargain with the devil. And instead of enlightenment, we got exploitation, gender violence, and the worst aspects of capitalism.
This is the rape of a society.
Nolan Higdon: And ironically, the system was built on cynicism about public control. “Government is the problem,” Reagan said. But what we got was government of, by, and for capital. The choice became: the billionaire backing Kamala Harris or the billionaire backing Trump. Global capital now shapes domestic and international policy. Epstein’s communications show him advising lawmakers on how foreign policy affects corporations. That’s the real power structure.
Robert Scheer: Before we wrap up, is there anything we missed? And please give your website again so people can go directly to your work.
Nolan Higdon: It’s nolanhigdon.substack.com. . The latest release is The Epstein Ledger, covering the millions of files released this month and earlier. And yes, I’ll come back anytime.
One more thing: Epstein was deeply connected to the press. Some journalists trusted him. One released communication shows Michael Wolff working with Epstein to surface information that could damage Trump. Regardless of how you feel about Trump, the idea of journalists collaborating with powerful figures for political ends — not reporting facts — is a serious problem. It echoes older issues like Operation Mockingbird.
Corporate media often relies on “experts” from the same elite circles. Those circles shape the narrative. Epstein was right in the middle of that. The media needs more diversity — not just demographic, but intellectual and structural — to protect the First Amendment.
Robert Scheer: There really is no traditional news media anymore. The Washington Post layoffs show the model is collapsing. And tech platforms control traffic — Google decides what people see. But readers can still find alternative sources if they look.
What I keep coming back to is: Who are these people? How did we let them run the world? I’ve interviewed Gates, Clinton — I thought they had values. But these files show we don’t know these people. Wealth and power destroy the human soul. What they participated in — directly or indirectly — is as ugly as it gets. Exploitation, abuse, the worst kind of vulnerability. And yet they still go to conferences and talk about saving humanity. It’s grotesque.
Nolan Higdon: One of the things I try to do with the Gaslight Gazette is give people as much factual information as possible in a sea of falsehoods. Right now, especially on social media, there are fake images and fake documents everywhere. So I wanted to create a place where people can read about these things and click directly on the real documents.
Robert Scheer: And that place is?
Nolan Higdon: nolanhigden.substack.com. . The Epstein Ledger is the most recent release, and all my Epstein work is collected under “Decoding Epstein.”
Within these documents, picking up on what you said about Chomsky, many of the people now getting scrutiny may not have done anything illegal — but they lied about their relationships with Epstein. Chomsky said it was one meeting; now we know it was a much deeper relationship. Secretary Gutnik said he met Epstein once and was disgusted; now we know it was far more. Elon Musk said he refused Epstein’s invitations; now we know he was seeking them and even appears to have given Epstein a tour of SpaceX.
A lot of these people simply lied. And the lying is what keeps fueling public interest. And remember — there are still three million more DOJ files we haven’t seen, plus all the financial records, plus the Epstein estate’s files. We’re only seeing a small peek behind the curtain.
Robert Scheer: Let’s talk about these people. Take Henry Rosovsky, the Harvard dean who opened the door to Epstein. I knew him. I respected him. What was he doing? Was it the money? Was it an old‑boy degeneracy? And then someone like Lawrence Summers — a man who presided over the deregulation that robbed millions of their homes. He didn’t break the law because he changed the law. But what was he doing in Epstein’s world? Why did he think he could get away with it? He wasn’t even that wealthy compared to the trillionaire class.
Why were all these people excited to be in Epstein’s network?
Nolan Higdon: Summers is a revealing case. He called Epstein his “wingman” while trying to pressure what appears to be a graduate student into a romantic relationship. He made disparaging comments about women. And one of the more telling emails shows Summers complaining that his own children supported Bernie Sanders — it drove him nuts.
But this is why it’s important to remember: the sex crimes are part of the story, but not the whole story. Epstein was connected to academia — Harvard, MIT — to intelligence agencies, to industry. The media has tried to avoid connecting these dots. They say Epstein was wealthy — he wasn’t. They say he was brilliant — his writing doesn’t suggest that. What he was, was a middleman.
We see him trying to blackmail Bill Gates. We see him trying to neutralize whistleblowers on behalf of business interests. We see him connecting Mossad and U.S. intelligence figures. He was a broker of influence, access, leverage — and sex crimes were one part of that.
When the documents were released, the government said some files wouldn’t be released because they relate to “torture.” That implies there are documents involving torture. That raises serious questions.
Robert Scheer: I hadn’t noticed that. What does it mean — documents connecting a convicted sex offender to torture?
Nolan Higdon: We don’t know much because the files are heavily redacted. But there are hints. One email shows Epstein and an anonymous person discussing torturing a young girl. Another shows Epstein asking whether someone had “done the torture.” There are references to videos given to Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell that he described as torture he “couldn’t handle,” and he demanded no more. That’s all we know.
Robert Scheer: So how do you proceed? There’s a feeding frenzy now. Is this being managed? Manipulated? How much is blacked out? They even exposed victims’ names — whether by mistake or not — and lawyers are in court trying to stop further releases to protect them. For people who haven’t dropped everything to follow this, what are the biggest revelations?
Nolan Higdon: The first major revelation is Epstein’s “second act.” After his early‑2000s plea deal — the sweetheart deal — we now have the memo from federal prosecutor Alex Acosta. It shows Acosta had more than enough evidence to put Epstein away. Yet Epstein walked with a light sentence. Acosta reportedly told a reporter he was instructed that Epstein “belonged to intelligence.” He now denies that, but legal experts agree: the evidence was there. So everything Epstein did after 2007 is partly on the federal government.
The second revelation involves Donald Trump. For reasons we don’t fully understand, someone in the government during Trump’s second term compiled accusations from the Epstein files into a single spreadsheet. It’s heavily redacted, but it lists several allegations made against Trump. Some were investigated and found unsupported, but the redactions make it impossible to know the full picture.
The third revelation is a confidential human source who told the government that Alan Dershowitz, Jeffrey Epstein, Sheldon Adelson, and Ghislaine Maxwell were connected in some way to Israeli intelligence. This is supported by other documents, including Epstein’s close relationship with former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak.
Robert Scheer: Let me step back. What I see in these papers is a deeper question: Where are we as a culture? These crimes targeted some of the most vulnerable people — often poor, often underage. This is exploitation at its most extreme. There’s a decadence here, a deep decadence. And I think it will stick. It’s like the fall of Rome — the decadence becomes the story.
These elites constantly tell us they’re saving the world. Bill Clinton, Elon Musk, Lawrence Summers — Summers, who once said women aren’t suited for science — all claiming to champion democracy and women’s rights. And yet they tolerated Epstein long after the charges were known.
You’re also an academic. What does this say about our culture? This isn’t a few bad apples. This is the ruling circle — the high‑tech elite, the scientific elite, the political elite — across Democrats, Republicans, even a few idealistic leftists. What does this tell you?
Nolan Higdon: This has been building for decades. Since the 1970s, the cultural ethos shifted away from democracy and the common good toward capitalism, wealth accumulation, and a hedonistic lifestyle. Capitalism benefits the few at the expense of the many. These documents show women treated as objects, but they also show elites trading secrets, manipulating markets, and operating a two‑tier system.
Think of the Robinhood scandal — average people coordinated to move a stock, and the app shut them down. But elites collude every day. The system works for them, not for everyone else.
As a culture, we face two paths: deep cynicism or an opportunity to rebuild institutions. For 40–50 years, the mantra has been “what’s good for capital is good for the people.” If you suggested taxing billionaires, you were accused of “punishing wealth.” But in a capitalist society, money is power — and billionaires shouldn’t be allowed to consolidate that power.
Robert Scheer: It’s worse than “punishing wealth.” They say you’re punishing the “creators of wealth.” Bill Clinton deregulated the internet and Wall Street. Summers dismantled the New Deal protections and then got rewarded with Harvard’s presidency and Wall Street money. These people are fully embedded in the money culture.
And they’re not giving up power. Bezos is gutting the Washington Post. Gates owns huge swaths of farmland. These people have us by the throat. And it’s not just Trump — he may be the least enthusiastic participant in this. It spans liberals, conservatives, religious right, Silicon Valley, Wall Street. It raises the question: Is this a diseased culture? Is this late‑stage capitalism rotting from within?
Nolan Higdon: Exactly. And the exploitation has to be wrapped in altruistic language because naked greed wouldn’t be accepted. So Gates presents himself as saving the world. Bezos claims to care about democracy. Summers and the Democrats posture as anti‑racist and anti‑sexist. But it’s propaganda. On the right, they wrap themselves in religion and “working‑class values.” But the Epstein files show they’re all playing for the same team — just with different rhetoric.
Breaking that cultural control — over media, information, narratives — is essential. People think they’re choosing between an idealistic liberal and a righteous conservative. But the files show both sides are part of the same elite network. Why did they find, how did they find this guy so exciting?
Robert Scheer: And this crime — this whole thing with Ghislaine Maxwell…
Nolan Higdon: Yes, Ghislaine Maxwell. That’s one of the more revealing parts of the story. Take Larry Summers, for example. He called Epstein his “wingman” while trying to pressure what appears to be a graduate student into a romantic relationship. He also made disparaging comments about women. One of the more striking emails shows Summers complaining that his own children supported Bernie Sanders in 2016 — it drove him crazy.
But your broader question about Epstein is important. The sex crimes and trafficking are part of the story, but not the whole story. Epstein was deeply embedded in academia — Harvard, MIT — in the intelligence community, and in industry. The news media has tried to avoid connecting these dots.
They say Epstein was wealthy — he wasn’t. They say he was brilliant — his writing doesn’t suggest that. What he was, was a middleman.
We see him trying to blackmail Bill Gates. We see him trying to neutralize whistleblowers on behalf of business interests. We see him connecting Mossad and U.S. intelligence figures. He was a broker of influence, access, and leverage — and the sex crimes were one part of that.
Robert Scheer: And the Israeli intelligence connection — Mossad — that’s real.
Nolan Higdon: Yes, absolutely. And the media has largely avoided putting all of this together. When the documents were released, the government said some files wouldn’t be released because they relate to “torture.” That implies there are documents involving torture, which raises serious questions.
Robert Scheer: I hadn’t noticed that. What does it mean — documents connecting a convicted sex offender to torture?
Nolan Higdon: We don’t know much because the files are heavily redacted. But there are hints. One email shows Epstein and an anonymous person discussing torturing a young girl. Another shows Epstein asking whether someone had “done the torture.” There are references to videos given to Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell that he described as torture he “couldn’t handle,” and he demanded no more. That’s all we know.
Robert Scheer: So how do you proceed? There’s a feeding frenzy now. Is this being managed? Manipulated? How much is blacked out? They even exposed victims’ names — whether by mistake or not — and lawyers are in court trying to stop further releases to protect them. For people who haven’t dropped everything to follow this, what are the biggest revelations?
Nolan Higdon: The first major revelation is Epstein’s “second act.” After his early‑2000s plea deal — the sweetheart deal — we now have the memo from federal prosecutor Alex Acosta. It shows Acosta had more than enough evidence to put Epstein away. Yet Epstein walked with a light sentence. Acosta reportedly told a reporter he was instructed that Epstein “belonged to intelligence.” He now denies that, but legal experts agree: the evidence was there. So everything Epstein did after 2007 is partly on the federal government.
The second revelation involves Donald Trump. For reasons we don’t fully understand, someone in the government during Trump’s second term compiled accusations from the Epstein files into a single spreadsheet. It’s heavily redacted, but it lists several allegations made against Trump. Some were investigated and found unsupported, but the redactions make it impossible to know the full picture.
The third revelation is a confidential human source who told the government that Alan Dershowitz, Jeffrey Epstein, Sheldon Adelson, and Ghislaine Maxwell were connected in some way to Israeli intelligence. This is supported by other documents, including Epstein’s close relationship with former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak.
Robert Scheer: Let me step back. What I see in these papers is a deeper question: Where are we as a culture? These crimes targeted some of the most vulnerable people — often poor, often underage. This is exploitation at its most extreme. There’s a decadence here, a deep decadence. And I think it will stick. It’s like the fall of Rome — the decadence becomes the story.
These elites constantly tell us they’re saving the world. Bill Clinton, Elon Musk, Lawrence Summers — Summers, who once said women aren’t suited for science — all claiming to champion democracy and women’s rights. And yet they tolerated Epstein long after the charges were known.
You’re also an academic. What does this say about our culture? This isn’t a few bad apples. This is the ruling circle — the high‑tech elite, the scientific elite, the political elite — across Democrats, Republicans, even a few idealistic leftists. What does this tell you?
Nolan Higdon: This has been building for decades. Since the 1970s, the cultural ethos shifted away from democracy and the common good toward capitalism, wealth accumulation, and a hedonistic lifestyle. Capitalism benefits the few at the expense of the many. These documents show women treated as objects, but they also show elites trading secrets, manipulating markets, and operating a two‑tier system.
Think of the Robinhood scandal — average people coordinated to move a stock, and the app shut them down. But elites collude every day. The system works for them, not for everyone else.
As a culture, we face two paths: deep cynicism or an opportunity to rebuild institutions. For 40–50 years, the mantra has been “what’s good for capital is good for the people.” If you suggested taxing billionaires, you were accused of “punishing wealth.” But in a capitalist society, money is power — and billionaires shouldn’t be allowed to consolidate that power.
Robert Scheer: It’s worse than “punishing wealth.” They say you’re punishing the “creators of wealth.” Bill Clinton deregulated the internet and Wall Street. Summers dismantled the New Deal protections and then got rewarded with Harvard’s presidency and Wall Street money. These people are fully embedded in the money culture.
And they’re not giving up power. Bezos is gutting the Washington Post. Gates owns huge swaths of farmland. These people have us by the throat. And it’s not just Trump — he may be the least enthusiastic participant in this. It spans liberals, conservatives, religious right, Silicon Valley, Wall Street. It raises the question: Is this a diseased culture? Is this late‑stage capitalism rotting from within?
Nolan Higdon: Exactly. And the exploitation has to be wrapped in altruistic language because naked greed wouldn’t be accepted. So Gates presents himself as saving the world. Bezos claims to care about democracy. Summers and the Democrats posture as anti‑racist and anti‑sexist. But it’s propaganda. On the right, they wrap themselves in religion and “working‑class values.” But the Epstein files show they’re all playing for the same team — just with different rhetoric.
Breaking that cultural control — over media, information, narratives — is essential. People think they’re choosing between an idealistic liberal and a righteous conservative. But the files show both sides are part of the same elite network.
Robert Scheer: Who are these people? It’s a question, unfortunately, that many in Germany didn’t ask about the ruling circles that ended up giving them Hitler. How does this happen? Who are these people? And now we have our own version of that question. Our country has been brought to a dangerous moment — and with it, the world. When we sneeze, the rest of the world gets pneumonia.
Who are the heroes? I interviewed Bill Gates once — I thought he was a pretty good guy. He told me he’d give away all his money before he died. His father was idealistic. His wife was idealistic. I drank the Kool‑Aid many times. I interviewed Bill Clinton before he was president — thought he had good values.
But what these files reveal is that we don’t know these people. We just don’t. We don’t know what wealth and proximity to power do to the human soul. It’s corrosive.
You can’t look the other way. What these people participated in — directly, indirectly, bystanders, wink‑and‑nod — it’s as ugly as it gets. Exploitation, abuse, the targeting of vulnerable human beings. And the idea that they can still go to conferences and talk about “saving humanity” — Bill Clinton saving the world’s poor, saving women everywhere — it’s grotesque.
We’re at about 40 minutes, so I’ll give you the last two minutes.
Nolan Higdon: I think you said it well. And that’s why, when I talked earlier about whether we go down a cynical path or build something new, accountability is essential. This can’t be Democrats wanting to hold Trump accountable and Republicans wanting to hold the Clintons accountable. It has to be a broader class‑based reckoning.
There are some small signs. Larry Summers has been shamed out of public life. The Clintons are apparently going to testify publicly before Congress — and young Democrats didn’t protect them. But we need much more. Where legal charges are possible, we need to see them.
And I think “reform” is the wrong word. Some of these agencies need to be broken up and rebuilt. The CIA, for example — how many decades of evidence do we need that it’s toxic? Epstein is clearly part of that story. Fundamental changes are needed. If those happen, the United States might get back on the right path. But if we stay stuck in hyper‑partisan finger‑pointing — pulling out this character or that character — instead of looking at the whole system, the problem will persist.
Robert Scheer: Let me add a brief editorial. One way we get co‑opted is through access. Journalists get the interview — I’ve been there. You can get giddy with access. Access journalism has been the death of journalism. It allows PR people to control the narrative on behalf of the powerful.
So hats off to you for doing the real work. Again, the Substack is Nolan Higdon — with an O at the end, which is what tripped me up this morning. I hope we can do this regularly, because you’re going to be spending a lot of time reading these files.
I want to thank Joshua Scheer, the executive producer — he’s a big fan of yours and lined this up. I’m thrilled we were able to do it. See you next time.
Nolan Higdon: See you. Thank you so much.
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