USC Annenberg professor Mary Murphy has covered the entertainment industry for many publications including TV Guide, New York Magazine, and The LA Times. In their conversation, Murphy tells host Robert Scheer about her reporting over 30 years ago on sexual harassment in Hollywood. Murphy says as a young reporter, she was harassed by a famous actor, but her editor told her to leave it out of the story to protect the actor. And Murphy tells Scheer that in spite of recent harassment allegations, she sees a sea change happening particularly in television where the morning news shows now all have prominent women hosts.
Credits
Host:
Robert Scheer
Producers:
Joshua Scheer, Rebecca Mooney
RS: Hi, this is Robert Scheer with another edition of Scheer Intelligence, the podcast we do weekly. I know it sounds like a pretentious name, but the intelligence comes from my guests, not from me. Iâm kind of like the CIA here, interrogating people. And in this case itâs Mary Murphy, a journalist that I have great respect for, Iâve known for years. She worked at the Los Angeles Times for about eight years, we overlapped; she was at Esquire magazine, she worked for New York Magazine, Entertainment Weekly, all that sort of thing. And I was going to begin, I will begin, with the question–because she covered the entertainment industry, sheâs now a professor at the University of Southern California Annenberg School for Communication [and Journalism], where I also teach. And the question I was going to put is about the sexual harassment scandal, particularly as affects the entertainment industry. I was going to ask, what did you know, and when–what do you know and when did you know it. But you, now I think I know the answer, because in 1986 you did a cover story for TV Guide–1986, a long time ago–on harassment in Hollywood. And then you went on The Today Show to talk about it. So why donât we begin with that: How did you come to cover the issue then, and what was the fallout?
MM: The cover was called âSexual Harassment in Hollywood,â and we couldnât use anyoneâs photo, because people were terrified to talk on the record. A few did, but we used a drawing. And what I remember, it came about from talking to some young actresses. I donât know why I thought that the casting couch in Hollywood had gone by the wayside, but it turned out that it had not. And some of the young actresses started talking to me about their experiences with directors, with producers, with stuntmen, with the people who were hiring them for stunts. And they talked about the same things that the women are talking about now, but this was 1986. And I remember going on The Today Show to talk about it, and the only woman who would go with me was a stuntwoman. Because she was tough and was unafraid. But it was the kind of thing–âCome back to my office, letâs do another audition, can you take your clothes off, we need to see you nude, letâs go out to dinner or you wonât be in this scene and you will not be on my show unless you do A, B, and C.â And thatâs how long ago, thatâs–
RS: Thirty years ago.
MM: Thirty years ago.
RS: Yeah. Let me just ask you, because when I read about, first the Harvey Weinstein case, which is the big one. I only met, I think I only met this guy once in my life. And generally, people referred to him, people I used to know, as kind of a good example of Hollywood; he was liberal, he made movies that had some social content, he supported the Clintons, et cetera. And I remember I was introduced, I did an interview with Bill Gates for Talk magazine, and I went to, there was a reception for Talk magazine–and this was a long time ago, in the nineties–and I remember being introduced to Harvey Weinstein by Tina Brown, who certainly was a very knowledgeable person, and actually inclined to even be gossipy. And neither then nor any time since, until this scandal broke, did anyone ever in Hollywood tell me about Harvey Weinstein and his behavior. Not once. And then I asked my wife, who was the–you know, she hired you at the LA Times, she was the associate editor–I just asked her this morning, I said, did you know about this? She was the head of the calendar section, the whole, you know, entertainment part of the LA Times. And she left in 2002. And she said no, she didnât hear about it. So thatâs a question, I mean, itâs not just–did Tina Brown know, did other people know and not talk about it? Whatâs your sense of how this story was kept from us, really?
MM: Itâs such an interesting question. I didnât know about Harvey Weinstein, because I didnât cover his movies; Iâve never even met him. But this is a story that I heard about Harvey Weinstein that always stuck with me. A friend of mine, a reporter, went to interview him, and asking him very tough questions–
RS: What year was that?
MM: Mmm, maybe five years ago. They were in a hotel room. But he was a man. And what he said to me was, three times during the interview Harvey Weinstein threatened to throw him out the window of the hotel. Thatâs how tough he was. And that always stuck with me when these stories came out, because I thought, if he was that tough with a male reporter, imagine what he was like with young women who desperately wanted to work. And then we heard his voice on the recording. And although the words were not as sexual, the tone of the voice was so menacing. And thatâs when I got, thatâs when I knew about Harvey Weinstein. But in my world, it was the Bill Cosby story that people had always said, âStay away from Bill Cosby. Bill Cosby is a threat to women.â But whatâs interesting about both of these men is, in Cosbyâs case itâs his image: the best father in American television, contemporary American television. The man who changed the way we looked at black families. I mean, this image was, you know, in our DNA. And the same thing with Harvey Weinstein: look at the man who brought us movies that elevated moviemaking. And so whatâs interesting is that both of them were so revered, but behind the scenes, whatever their demons were drove them in ways that were so repulsive to women. But I did not know. I did not know about Harvey Weinstein, at all.
RS: Well, thatâs interesting. Because when you talk now to people, they say everyone knew. Now, maybe thatâs a more recent phenomena. But the both of us worked for the LA Times, which after all was very important to the entertainment industry; we were in the building, you know, you did a story in â86 on sexual harassment. Did anybody say to you, well, why donât you look at, you know, any of the people whose names have come up. You mentioned Cosby; when did you first hear about Cosby?
MM: I heard about Cosby during The Cosby Show. I didnât know he was harassing women; I didnât know he was giving them drugs. But I knew that he had a lot of young women around him, and that women were afraid to be alone with him. I knew that. But whatâs interesting is that this has been going on for years, and although I didnât cover movies, reporters had to know. That this is something that we have to remember.
RS: Do you think itâs possible that we got into a sort of, one of the contradictions of the politically correct liberal side of things? After all, Bill Clinton was known to be a pretty aggressive womanizer at best, and maybe an exploiter, as claimed. And yet you know, people did look the other way, some of the very same people who have really, now, come out with very strong voices. And again, Harvey Weinstein was on the liberal side of things; he was not making the schlock movies, he was supporting strong, independent movies including some like Frida, which had a woman character as the lead. And I just wonder whether there wasnât a double standard here. If he had been a conservative, would he have been challenged?
MM: Right. If heâd been a conservative republican, would he have been challenged? And that, I think thatâs a really good observation. But the thing is that, the thing to me about this whole story that is the most inspiring is the women. And I mean starting with Megyn Kelly, who supported Gretchen Carlson in her suit against Fox and Roger Ailes. I mean, first of all, that Gretchen Carlson stood up. But for me, the huge turning point in this is when the No. 1 woman on Fox News backed up another woman. And once that started, I believe that other women said, âWe can do this. We can actually speak up.â You know, thereâs a lot of negative about Megyn Kelly, but boy, I donât feel that way at all, because she has done some fantastic reporting about this. The other thing is, is that I donât necessarily think the victims should be the story, but the victims, once they were celebrities–like, you know, Angelina Jolie and Gwyneth Paltrow and Ashley Judd and Rose McGowan–once celebrity women lent credence to this, then everyone started paying attention. Before this, people would say, âOh–you know, oh, herâ–or look at the criticism today, I mean, Catherine Deneuve came out and criticized the #MeToo movement. But once the celebrity women–you know, because I teach about celebrities at USC. And celebrities have tremendous power that has nothing to do with just their movies. It has to do with affecting the culture. And these women stood up, and I think it made a huge difference in the coverage and in the way people started to pay attention.
RS: I just a few years ago, here at USC, I brought in the directors of a movie called [The] Hunting Ground, about rape on college campuses, a very powerful movie. And that movie, I think, was slated to win an Oscar for documentary; they had also previously made a very important movie on rape in the military, and I think theyâre working on a movie now on harassment in Hollywood. And this was not, you know, did Al Franken put his hand on the wrong part of your back; this was rape. And âSC here, where we teach, was on the list of schools that had not acted effectively on this issue. And I showed it in school. And I remember even in our own department, people criticized me and said, âYou know, that film is being criticized. That film is flawed, itâs weak.â I said, what do you mean? They said, âWell, at Harvardâ–one of their examples was at Harvard Law School. And I remember people that I really respect in our department said, âWell, you know, youâre showing that movie, but that movie is really questionable.â And I said, whatâs questionable about it? Well, Alan Dershowitz and others at Harvard, and a large number of law professors, had condemned the movie and said, you know, âYou unfairly accused this person,â and attacked the witness. And this was not anonymous; these were people who actually were giving their name. Because I think there really is a question about using anonymous witnesses, and I think, you know, you shouldnât be guilty until proven innocent; itâs supposed to be the opposite in our culture. And so Iâm all for accurate and careful treatment of these stories, but when I watched that movie I thought, you know, wait a minute! Why is such a large number of people at the Harvard Law School and elsewhere attacking this movie? Well, it was very close to home. It was their territory. And now, you know, if that movie came out now, my goodness, it would be celebrated everywhere. To pick up on what you were suggesting, weâve had–as we did with gay rights quite recently–weâve had a revolution in this area. I donât think itâs going to go away. And now the question is also, though, about reporting it and its consequence, you know. And weâre here at a college where we take sexual harassment classes and so forth. So last night after class, an old friend of mine who does work at the LA Times was a speaker in class. At the end I shook hands with her to say goodbye, and my wife was there, she was on the panel as well, and there were hugs all around. And she said âWell, no, no, give me a hug, Iâve known you since I, you know, for 20 years.â And I just–today I thought about it, no; hugs might be out, and maybe have to be out. Maybe a whole permissive environment of the sixties turned out to be not so wonderful. Maybe the sexual revolution was no so great. Maybe there were a lot of victims in this. I donât want to take this too far, but I wonder if youâve thought about this. Thereâs roots here of a notion of sexual freedom that ended up actually being quite exploitive and misogynist, in the case of some people weâre talking about.
MM: Yeah, you know, I have so many thoughts, when you were talking about that. I remember The Hunting Ground, discussing it in my class. And for me, The Hunting Ground was about the institutional ignorance, and also the institutional pushback of these women who were desperate to report–
RS: In the universities.
MM: In the universities. And then I asked my students in class, I said, how many women in this class are afraid of rape? How many women here? And I would say at least three-fourths of the women in the class raised their hand. And then one of the men in the class raised his hand, and he said to me, âIâm afraid that someoneâs going to say I raped them, and then I will be expelled from school.â And I thought to myself, you know, this movie–and thatâs why I think Hollywood is so powerful. This movie, movies like these, these documentaries–they encourage these conversations. The conversations that now are on the front page, and now are at the Golden Globes, and now are in every newspaper and about everyone. But these conversations have been building for a long time. People are afraid to talk about these things. You know, when I was at the LA Times, I was sexually harassed, no question about it. You know, youâre a young girl, youâre 24 years old, youâve come from the Midwest, youâre trying to, you know, be a great reporter. And it happens, and youâre just terrified. So women my age have been keeping these secrets for years. Which is why I think this movement is so powerful; because itâs not just this generation, itâs the generations before them who are saying, yeah–you were talking about roots–the roots go deep. Whether, I donât see it as like the sixties sexual freedom, âcause it never was about that; it was always about a powerful man saying, OK, you can get ahead, but this is the path; you have to take this with your journey. And it was really scary. I remember when, I guess it was Sally Quinn, or I canât exactly remember who said, you know, women sleep their way to the top. No, no woman wanted to sleep their way to the top; women were forced into these things. Thatâs why, like the Lupita Nyongâo story that she wrote in The New York Times about what happened to her with Harvey Weinstein, the very graphic descriptions of what he did–any woman whoâs been harassed can say, yes. The specifics are what women are identifying with. Not the general, itâs the specifics; oh yeah, wow, I–oh, I remember those feelings–oh, yeah, I know, I know sheâs telling the truth, âcause Iâve been there.
RS: I wanted to ask you about that, and about Hollywood. Because tonight in class, I have an ethics class, and I very often show this movie by Robert Altman called The Player. I donât know if you remember that movie.
MM: Kind of remember it, yeah.
RS: Well, an interesting thing about The Player is that a lot of stars in Hollywood volunteered their, they worked for equity rates in this movie, âcause they respected Altman as a great filmmaker, and they thought it was a terrific movie about Hollywood. And it dealt with some of the corruptions of Hollywood, particularly about sincerity, and the whole plot revolves around pitching story ideas, and these guys come in and they have this wonderful idealistic movie, and by the end of the movie theyâre making a crappy movie and sell out. And so the movie basically is about how there really isnât any integrity in Hollywood in terms of what, the movies you make and so forth. However, the theme that runs through the movie is one of constant sexual exploitation. Tim Robbins, who plays the big producer, he ends up sleeping with the wife of a writer that heâs accused of murdering. And thereâs just, sex runs right through it. They have their meetings in hot tubs, and everything. That part is not challenged in the movie; that doesnât go to the integrity thing. Thatâs just assumed to be the normal rhythm and style of doing business in Hollywood. Oh yeah, this weekend weâre going to hot springs or something and weâre going to be in the hot tub talking about scripts. You know, and the idea that that was inherently exploitative and misogynist in extreme cases, or many cases. And so Iâm just wondering about that–youâve covered Hollywood–and I should say, by the way, let me just take a quick break, which I always forget to do for people who are broadcasting this and need a break. Iâm talking to Mary Murphy, this is an edition of Scheer Intelligence, and Mary Murphy has long experienced working for TV Guide, for the LA Times and television and so forth, covering Hollywood. So we are talking quite a bit about the sexual harassment scandal, which goes way beyond Hollywood but sort of is centered there in many ways. [omission] Drawing on your rich experience of covering this as a journalist for the LA Times, for TV Guide and others. And the questions I was posing to you, ah, do you want to respond to it?
MM: About the sexual content throughout the film, and throughout Hollywood?
RS: Yeah, my point was, you have a movie, as I say–Iâm sorry, I should have restated the question–The Player. And everybody admired, a lot of people in Hollywood admired that movie for telling the truth about cynicism in Hollywood, and yeah you come in with wonderful script ideas, and the thing is almost a constant pitch. And then Tim Robbins–who plays it brilliantly; itâs a wonderful movie, and Roger Altmanâs a brilliant director–and as I said, people contributed their talent to this movie; a lot of famous actors of the time worked for scale âcause they liked the movie and wanted to support it. So they endorsed the basic idea of the movie. But one of the things thatâs not questioned in the movie is the sexual exploitation, or certainly sexual familiarity. And that is why I brought up the sixties. Thereâs kind of an acceptance that thatâs the norm. However, the women are all wearing tight, short skirts; theyâre wearing high heels; and they are going off to the hot, you know, I donât know where in Palm Springs, Two Bunch Palm or some other place where theyâre going to have a wonderful discussion about scripts. And so Iâve shown that movie before, but now when I show it tonight, Iâm going to think, wait a minute. The thing thatâs not examined is the sexual, what, exploitation, harassment.
MM: I think, first of all, movies are different than television; at least, I thought so. Because in films, itâs six weeks, six months, two months, three months and youâre done and youâre on to the next thing. If youâre in a series, itâs seven years; itâs five years, if youâre on a network. So theyâre two different worlds, in a way. And people were very used to the fact that, you know, when people met on sets, they often had affairs. Itâs the intimidation part that we didnât see. It looked like, oh, letâs all go to Two Bunch Palms and talk about the scripts. But what wasnât there was the real stuff that was going on behind the scenes, which was the intimidation, if you donât go with me to Two Bunch Palms and talk about the script, youâre not going to have a career. And thatâs the part that now–
RS: We should be careful to say we donât know of anybody doing this at Two Bunch Palms–
MM: No, but we might investigate it! [Laughs]
RS: I just picked a–yeah, no, no, no, I mean, I want to–
MM: I know, I know.
RS: I think thatâs the old home of Al Capone. I may be wrong on that. But–
MM: But in–wherever it was, it was about, you know, the women went along; that was just what it was like, the women went along, they wore tight skirts, they were sex symbols, there was all that. And that was fine for the audience, but it was what was happening behind the scenes that is now, finally, coming out. Itâs a real–itâs a real underbelly of Hollywood, which has been going on for decades. And I remember when I was young, I was on a movie set–and, I mean, I was very young, and again, very new to Hollywood. From St. Louis. And I was interviewing this very famous actor, at night, in his trailer. And in the middle of the interview, he unbuckled his belt and unzipped his pants. So Iâm there, Iâm 24 years old–
RS: Youâre there for a professional news organization?
MM: Iâm there, yeah, I mean, like, you know, writing. And all I remember doing is putting my head down and saying, ah, âThank you very much, I think I have everything,â and running out of the trailer. And then telling my editors and not putting it in the story. But I did go back to the guy when I had to interview him again eight years later, and called him an SOB right in front of me, and said, âYou did this and youâve done this to other women, and you shouldnât be doing this.â But when it happened, when I was young–âcause most of these women are young! You have to understand that, 18, 19, 20 years old. You do not have the ability when youâre that age to confront this.
RS: But why didnât you put it in your story?
MM: Because they told me not to. They told me not to put it in the story.
RS: Why? What was the justification?
MM: The justification was, weâre not ruining his career. Maybe he didnât really mean it. Maybe he wasnât doing that. That–you see, it was the sort of male-of-male protection of it. And what did I know? I didnât–this man was a huge movie star, and so I didnât know what. But–and Iâve never even talked about it, but that–Iâve talked about it to him–
RS: And even now you donât want to reveal his name.
MM: Mm-mmm, I donât, no. Because he, he, ah–because I dealt with it directly with him. The thing that I thinkâs happening, as much as the underbody or underbelly of Hollywood coming out, is I could see today in the news, it was very interesting, how this is finally also spilling into the area of equal pay. Itâs not just about sexual harassment anymore; itâs moving into really where the more powerful area is: Are we going to be paid equally? And also, if you look at morning television–just look at it–morning television is the most important part of television now today. Itâs not the evening news, itâs morning television. So suddenly The Today Show is anchored by two women. And the CBS Morning News, although they have men come in and out, are two women. And the most powerful person on Good Morning America is Robin Roberts, another woman. So thereâs a slow sea change thatâs happening. It doesnât mean we donât need male voices, but it means that if you are a male voice whoâs been harassing women, you are no longer necessary.
RS: I just wonder whether this will spread to all these other industries, particularly the political one. And I think one reason people, it became a certain release of anger, was because of Donald Trumpâs behavior. And youâve been both a Hollywood reporter and a Washington political reporter, and youâve covered women covering politics and all that sort of thing. So you know, just sort of to wrap this up, how does it compare Hollywood, which youâve covered, and say, Washington?
MM: We are at the moment of the real–the real intersection of Hollywood and politics is happening right now because Donald Trump is the president of the United States. I remember the Bill Clinton allegations, and then the charges against him, and then the senators who were actually, wanted this impeachment–then those senators were going down too for having affairs. So, see, you see it as Washington and Hollywood, and I see it as men in power. And what I see emerging–and what I saw on the campaign trail with women, starting with Gwen Ifill and Rita Braver and Cokie Roberts–I saw women on the campaign trail who were just as tough and just as smart as men, and who in no way were in those positions, as the generation before them. So I believe that, you know, itâs the same. I think itâs the same everywhere, itâs the same in a Ford plant, when the men are in power and the women–what needs to happen, and what is happening, I think, is that women are moving into these positions of power. And when that happens, then the balance will change. Itâs not just about the projects; itâs about the balance of power.
RS: You know, thereâs also an assumption here which unfortunately may be valid. Which is that men are screwed up in a way that women arenât. Because youâre suggesting, and I think thereâs a lot of evidence, that women in power do not exploit in the same way sexually, certainly. You keep thinking they will, and you know, but they donât. And–in general; I mean, there are very rare examples that you can find. And so it really, thereâs a story here that hasnât really been very much examined. Because the question is, youâre talking about a guy like Bill Cosby, I assume he was a basically, is a basically decent guy–
MM: I donât assume that anymore at all.
RS: The âanymoreâ is important. But I mean, the fact is, he lived his life, and on one level–so did Bill Clinton. I mean, all of these people–you know, Dustin Hoffman has been criticized, a whole bunch of these people–
MM: Kevin Spacey.
RS: Yeah. And then it raises questions about the male species. You know, what is it about men and the culture that men have been raised in, that this sort of behavior–you know, you could raise it about violence, certainly sexual violence–
MM: I think this is a really important story. The one weâre just talking about now. You know, I was raised–my motherâs one of fifteen, and my father was one of eleven.
RS: You were a good Catholic girl who went to Fordham, I believe?
MM: I was a good Catholic girl. Went to Fordham. But more importantly–
RS: For people who donât know Fordham, itâs a school in the Bronx–
MM: Itâs in the Bronx.
RS: –I used to walk across it to get on my way to get to City College. But it was a center of, what, Jesuit education–
MM: Yeah, Father McShane runs it now, heâs amazing. But the thing is that I was raised by not just my mother but all of her sisters. So I understood the power of women. And that is what the change really is. The change is not just women reporting; itâs women banding together. When women first were in power in Hollywood, I remember there were stories of, you know, nightmare stories of the women who were running the studios. And then somebody like Sherry Lansing came along, and she brought a skill and a kind of empathy into this world that now many other women possess. Somehow, women realized you can be in power and not be a monster; you can be in power and not abuse people. But many men, for whatever reason, have taken the role of powerful man and used it in a way that is very harmful to women.
RS: Well you know, I did want to ask you one last question, but it seems to have nothing to do with any of this. But also, maybe it has everything in the world to do with it. And Iâm very impressed with the fact that at this point in your career, in addition to being a professor here at USC, you actually care about the homeless problem in Los Angeles. You work with the Midnight Mission downtown. And for my money, this is the biggest moral crisis in our society right now. We just have, particularly in a city like Los Angeles, San Francisco, you have this wealth, and then you have people just living in these encampments everywhere. Weâve run out of time, but I know youâre very active in dealing with that problem. And so youâve gone from the world of celebrity–and you know, yes, these are victims, but then we think well, at least some of them have resources, and so forth. But if we want to really talk about these, what are they, throwaway people–
MM: Fifty-eight thousand and counting in Los Angeles alone.
RS: OK, think about that statistic, folks. Fifty-eight thousand human beings living under cardboard in the rain that weâve been having. You know, and you drive by and you look the other way, or if they want to wipe your window you get worried and so forth. And so is there a one-minute response to what youâve learned from–
MM: Yeah. There are things we can do. There are things journalists can do. Journalists can call attention to all–there is sexual assault on Skid Row all the time, and thereâs no HR; theyâre not, you know, theyâre not going to the Golden Globes to talk about it. The people living in the encampments, many of these people are mentally ill, many are drug addicted, but many of them have to do with the fact that housing costs are so great in Los Angeles, people lose their jobs, they lose their houses, they lose their cars, they end up on the street–and we have money to house them, but many neighborhoods say: No, not here. So we have a responsibility in our city to help the people, the very people you look away from, we have to help.
RS: Thatâs an important point on which to end. Not to minimize any other grievances and exploitation and violence. But, and you make a very important point. OK, a depressing, but on the other hand important point on which to end this edition of Scheer Intelligence. Our producers are Rebecca Mooney and Joshua Scheer. Our engineers are Mario Diaz and Kat Yore. And I want to say, we get to do this here at USC, and because the Annenberg for Communication and Journalism makes the facility available to us. And Sebastian Grubaugh, this brilliant engineer, comes in even on his days off and engineers the show. So, thank you, Sebastian.
MM: Thank you, Sebastian. Thank you, Bob.