Big Pharma Big Tech Health Matt Taibbi Media Pandemic

Meet The Censored: Ivermectin Critic David Fuller

If Internet algorithms can't tell the difference between criticism and advocacy, what's safe to report? Why one filmmaker believes "YouTube is unfit for the purpose for hosting journalism."

By Matt Taibbi / TK News

They fixed the problem, twice. That’s the good news. The first time filmmaker, former BBC and Channel 4 journalist, and Rebel Wisdom co-founder David Fuller put together a video criticizing ivermectin advocates was on August 4th. Called “Ivermectin For and Against,” it was taken down by YouTube, on the grounds that it constituted medical misinformation.

Fuller appealed the decision for a variety of reasons – more on those later – and won. He continued investigating the subject, and taking on the claims of ivermectin advocates, hoping to conclude with a video called “Vaccines and DarkHorse: A Final Word.” This last piece included footage of well-known ivermectin advocates Bret Weinstein and Heather Heying, whose DarkHorse podcast was previously featured on this site after YouTube banned some of their material.

Of course, Fuller was including the DarkHorse clip – not one of the banned ones, incidentally – to criticize it, not endorse it. But the Google/YouTube algorithm appeared confused, and Fuller’s work was not only taken down, he was also given a strike under YouTube’s “Three Strikes and You’re Out” program. He appealed again, but this time lost, leaving only one option: the media.

It’s an unfortunate fact, but the human beings at the Google/YouTube press team have repeatedly proven to be the last, best option for fixing errors in some of the more bizarre content moderation cases. In this instance, when I reached out to YouTube to ask if they’d made a mistake, and perhaps confused Fuller with the people he was criticizing, the company quickly fixed the glitch, unstruck the strike, and restored his video, with the statement:

Upon further review, we determined that videos posted by Rebel Wisdom and Peak Prosperity were incorrectly removed. The videos are not violative of our policies and as such they’ve been reinstated.

Problem solved, right?

Not exactly. Not only was Fuller’s case just one in a recent series of deletions and strikes doled out to makers of reports about Covid-19-related issues, but the episode showed how dicey even discussing any of these issues has become for independent media figures. Fuller has done plenty of work for mainstream outlets and could have done so with this topic, but intentionally went the alternative route to take on ivermectin.

“I deliberately chose to tell the story on Rebel Wisdom rather than pitching it to a legacy media outfit,” he says. “I didn’t want to give Bret’s fans the chance to paint it as an ‘MSM smear.’”

In other words, Fuller was making a conscious effort to use an independent editorial approach, as a means of side-stepping the credibility concerns that some audiences have with mainstream outlets.

The problem is, in its zeal to clamp down on “misinformation” about everything from vaccines to perhaps-potential alternative treatments like ivermectin, YouTube and other platforms have had to rely upon algorithmic tools that can’t distinguish between critique and advocacy. The end result is a media landscape where whole subjects may now be off-limits to outlets like Rebel Wisdom, who will continue to be in the dark about where YouTube considers the line between informing and “misinforming” to be, especially with complex subjects like Covid-19.

The ironies of Fuller’s situation in particular are myriad. First, he counts himself as a friend of both Bret Weinstein and Heather Heying. Despite this, he’s taken strong exception to some of their claims about ivermectin, as well as some of the language they’ve employed with regard to criticisms of the safety and efficacy of mRNA Covid-19 vaccines.

Fuller, however, is also a critic of the mainstream approach of dealing with such issues, which often involves simply deploying ad hominem insults at anyone with interest in ivermectin or concerns about vaccines. “The assumption that anyone who questions the vaccines is stupid is clearly wrong,” he wrote, in a recent Medium piece.

He adds now that “these topics, especially ivermectin, have become swallowed whole as culture war signifiers.” As a result, “we’re now in a world where the mainstream won’t ‘platform’ alternative claims for fear of ‘false equivalence’ and are trying to keep alive a broken system of gatekeeping.” Fuller believes this is counter-productive, and his idea is to meet issues head on, including as much relevant information as he can, even if he ultimately comes down strongly against ivermectin and in favor of vaccines.

“This is how this is supposed to work, back and forth, ideas tested in the marketplace,” he says. “If they’re not tested, then it’s not a marketplace.”

In videos like “Ivermectin For and Against,” he set up a debate of sorts between a proponent of ivermectin in Dr. Tess Lawrie and people taking the opposite position, like Australian researcher Gideon Meyerowitz-Katz and emergency room doctor Graham Walker. These were, as he describes it, “medical figures who disagreed with [Lawrie’s] read of the evidence.” Rather than just insult people, he used an approach that he calls “balanced and journalistic.”

Nonetheless, that “balanced” approach earned a YouTube ban, which puzzled Fuller. “When I read through their guidance, there was no exception for journalistic treatment of a subject,” he says. “Even though I quizzed the interviewee pretty hard and pushed back, the rules were written in such a way that it didn’t matter what the interviewer did. That’s pretty screwed, in my view, [that] they’re unable to distinguish between a puff piece and a grilling.”

Fuller notes that the guidance does have a section that reads:

But that guidance isn’t terribly specific, and given that he himself received a strike despite adding plenty of “additional context,” it’s not clear if YouTube’s algorithm is capable of enforcing its own terms.

Fuller is the third straight journalist on whose behalf TK has (seemingly successfully) intervened with YouTube/Google, whose press team is courteous and responsive. The first involved Canadian broadcaster Paul Jay, while the second was a bizarre story we ended up not running (I’ll leave the convoluted explanation on that one for another day) involving a well-known investigative site that was not-so-humorously misidentified as adult content. The principals of all three of these outlets are glad their problems were fixed, but they’re also all decidedly unsure if corrective action by Google/YouTube’s press department leaves things better, or worse.

In Fuller’s case, he notes, “the appeal process was done. They only reviewed it because the press team got involved. Most people wouldn’t have levers they can pull in this situation.”

As another reporter caught up in one of these controversies put it, “This is the issue with monopoly companies. If we’re going to let them have monopoly market share, they should be forced to invest in real customer service, so fixing this kind of thing doesn’t depend on knowing someone in the media.”

Though Fuller and I disagree about whether or not things like demonetization of DarkHorse count as censorship, and whether such suppression works or is warranted, both his and Weinstein’s episodes are identical in showing for umpteenth time that algorithms simply cannot be depended upon to sort out the subtleties of public discussion about complex topics.

Moreover, once companies like YouTube get into the business of litigating what is and is not dangerous in a public health debate, they will inevitably make the mistake of deleting true information about drugs like ivermectin or facts about potential dangers (no matter how remote) of vaccines, either out of fear of the aforementioned “false equivalence” or concern that admitting certain truths will seem too much like affirmative advocacy.

Once companies take that step, it tends to have the impact of further convincing people that they’re being lied to by mainstream news and partners in Silicon Valley, which in turn might lead to urging people in the opposite direction of the content moderators’ intent. This Internet version of the Streisand effect is one of the reasons I’ve been against censoring proponents of drugs like ivermectin, but the much bigger reason is that any strategy based on bans inevitably leads to oversimplifications and groupthink that are easily seen through by audiences.

Fuller takes on issues like ivermectin by not succumbing to silly caricatures, and focusing on challenging specific assertions, like that ivermectin is “something like 100% effective as a prophylactic.” Fuller takes serious issue with such claims, but his solution is to try to confront proponents with more information, and show audiences the results of such exchanges.

This, however, is harder to do, when such an approach might earn an outlet like Rebel Wisdom a strike from YouTube. I asked Fuller his thoughts on the episode:

TK: After your first ban, when you looked at YouTube’s rules, you say you found there was “no exception in their guidance for journalistic treatment.” What did you understand that to mean? Did you think it meant you can’t criticize people like Weinstein?

Fuller: No, this [latest] film being taken down came totally out of the blue. It was the previous “Ivermectin For and Against” film that was taken down (I assume algorithmically flagged) and put up on appeal that made sense.

Bret had his film with Pierre Kory taken down, and lots of people framed it as that you couldn’t ‘discuss’ ivermectin on YouTube. However, I thought that he was blurring the line between discussion, and advocacy of particular treatments, in particular claiming that IVM was “100% effective” as a prophylactic, based on one study from Argentina (Carvallo), which would clearly suggest people should take it in lieu of vaccines. (Incidentally that study has now been shown to be at the very least fundamentally flawed, and may not even have taken place). 

So I made a film that showed both sides and challenged the Ivermectin advocate Tess Lawrie. It also featured two medical figures making the counter argument. It was still taken down, and when I checked the YouTube guidance, it was clear there was no exceptions for challenging questions/journalistic pushback/balanced pieces… From the way the guidance is written, the fact that I challenged her points seemingly doesn’t factor in. So they were within their rights to take it down, but they ended up restoring it on appeal, again with no information as to why.

If this current film was taken down because it had the clips from Bret’s film with Steve Kirsch in it, then this would also demonstrate that it’s dangerous to feature controversial content/figures even if you are critiquing them. However, I guess we don’t know if that was the reason.

TK: They reinstated you on appeal once, and now have done it again after a press query. Does that restore your confidence in this system? 

Fuller: Absolutely not. There is no transparency in the system at all. I still don’t know why either of these films was taken down, or reinstated. I’m lucky that I have a level of profile and experience as a journalist that I have more weight when I appeal, or that this gets taken up by other journalists, but as a content creator trying to tackle some of the biggest and most important topics there are, and topics I would argue the mainstream is failing at right now, then you are constantly walking a line that seems to move randomly.

I would argue that I have put together the most detailed investigation into both ivermectin and the vaccine claims that exists at the moment. With ivermectin the mainstream is still dismissively talking about “horse dewormer” and assuming that anyone taking ivermectin is stupid, and has failed to tackle the vaccine claims in any depth. 

I also put out one of the most important news-making interviews on the topic, where former member of Pierre Kory’s FLCCC, Eric Osgood MD, spoke out for the first time about his concerns that the case for IVM had been hijacked by anti-vaccine activists.

I deliberately published my work privately through Rebel Wisdom as I wanted to avoid any suggestions that this was an “MSM smear” and reach as many “vaccine hesitant” people as possible. I could have pitched more widely, I have bylines in BBC/Economist/Guardian and more. But YouTube have made it extremely difficult to do genuine journalism on their platform.

TK: Why is it important to show source material? As a filmmaker, what’s the difference between showing something and summarizing something? 

Fuller: The viewer needs to see the source material to understand how something was said, and the context. Clips tell the story in a way that summarizing would never do.

TK: What lessons do you take away from this experience? 

Fuller: That YouTube is unfit for the purpose for hosting journalism, and that their moderation system is secretive, random and very disrespectful to creators who have made large amounts of money for the company. I still have no idea why any of these films was taken down or why.

11 comments

  1. Thus the problem of monetization rears its ugly head. At the risk of being branded a communist – as the ignorant naysayers tend to do – the very fact that the economic survival of investigative journalism depends on being paid for the content unearthed and published automatically lends support to the accusation that it is slanted toward one or another donor/supporter. Only when there is public advocacy in the form of remuneration will there be journalistic integrity that cannot be questioned. How such an ongoing payroll can be effectively and judiciously managed is the Gordian knot that is at the root of implementation. Journalists need a paycheck, not a fee.

  2. Youtube is not the only platform to censor. I regularly used the “comments” feature in the online version of the NYTimes. My comments are always on topic and many have been chosen as “Time Picks” meaning they are highlighted for other readers.

    Last week I wrote three comments about the Times constant reference to Ivermectin as ‘horse medicine.’ In each I only sought to inform readers of the science. I summarized a few studies from medical journals and then aded the link to a full list of published scientific literature on Ivermectin.

    In each case my comment was rejected. In one case I initially revived the email indicating i was “accepted.” But when I went to the link to find it I discovered it had been removed.

    I tried to get around this censorship by removing my summary language and instead just posting the link to the medical journals with a sentence suggesting readers read the science for themselves. No luck, rejected.

    I don’t know if the Times uses algorithms or human editors. But one thing was clear. They decided that there would be no dissenting views from their horse med stories. Not even if they were from peer reviewed science journals.

    And therein lies a significant part of the problem. I agree with Matt Taibbi that computers shouldn’t be doing screening. They only do what they’re programed to do and they’re not programed to think.

    But it’s also clear that MSM like the NYTimes had clearly decided at the editorial level that there would be no questioning of their horse med stories about Ivermectin. Even though it was developed for humans and millions have taken it over the last forty years.

    I don’t know if it was coincidence but last week similar stories using similar language popped up on a number of news platforms. It was all about ‘horse meds.’ None that I found had any links to scientific journals, though all argued that Ivermectin was somewhere between inconsequential, worthless or dangerous.

    And many implied that anyone who thought otherwise was a country bumpkin yahoo who voted for Trump and swallowed all his lies.

    I haven seen Fuller’s piece but I plan to. I am familiar with Dr. Lawrie and have actually read her study. But to understand the vehemence that has been directed against scientist like her and the censorship of this discussion you simply have to look at the language of the FDA’s EUA document.

    According to the FDA’s own rules if there is a “viable” treatment available for treating a disease, then it must be used before the use of medicines that are still in the experimental stage.

    Should the Covid virus be treated as an exception to the rule? Do the FDA rules even allow or exceptions? I don’t know the answer, but neither can i find a rational explanation for the anger and condemnation that has occurred around what should be an open and civil scientific debate.

    This is no more that what any of us should want. Who among us hasn’t benefited from the very normal process of getting a second opinion or having a panel of doctors review case rounds? This is how medical science is supposed to work.

    Censorship fuels uninformed speculation, which in turn adds to false information. The best antidote is openness, accuracy and an honest quest for truth.

    1. The Times has been censoring thoughtful comments for many years. I gave up on them back in 2014.

      It’s tiresome to make a well researched comment with supporting data only to have it deleted.

      You won’t find many statisticians or people in the hard sciences commenting in the Times. They know they’re not wanted.

  3. Taibbi should keep away from speaking about medicine and health altogether… He is clueless about it. And he take Fuller with him as they depart into the sunset and away from where real research needs to be objectively evaluated and reviewed to arrive at plausible scientific or medical consensus. A regularly updated list of published studies on ivermectin and other treatments specifically for covid shows that for ivermectin

    131 studies, 52 peer-reviewed have been conducted specifically for Covid-19
    63 have been clinical trials that involved 613 scientists and over 26,398 patients
    58% improvement in 31 randomized controlled trials
    86% improvement in 14 prophylaxis trials
    72% improvement in 27 early stage infection treatment trials
    40% improvement in 22 late stage infection treatment trials
    58% improvement in 25 mortality results
    Full list of Ivermectin studies and details: https://c19ivermectin.com

    In contrast to Fauci’s BS touting Remdesivir, there have been 21 studies enrolling 35,744 patients in Remdesivir trials showing only a 22% improvement in all studies combined. This rate is below that of simply taking probiotics (5 studies at 24% improvement), melatonin (7 studies at 62% improvement, curcumin (4 studies at 71% improvement), nigella sativa (3 studies at 84% improvement, quercetin (4 studies at 76% improvement), and aspirin (7 studies at 37% improvement). Despite the small number of trials and low numbers of enrolled participants in the others, early results indicate that more attention and funding needs to be allocated for more rigorous research if there is to be any success in curbing SARS-2 infections’ severity.

    1. Thanks for the link. I started taking Vit. D & C and zinc when china’s first cases started it’s what they gave their citizens. I got the virus but was only sick for 72hrs. I later took Ivermectin for 7 days, yes the human one. Works like charm.

      1. What you have here is merely correlation, not causation. I have several relatives who didn’t take ivermectin, c, d, or zinc and handled the virus in less than 72 hrs.

      2. It has nothing to do with vitamins or Ivermectin. What matters is the viral load.
        Medpage Today: Cruise ship outbreak in which all passengers were provided surgical masks resulted in a higher proportion of asymptomatic COVID-19 cases. Places like jails and meatpacking plants, provide epidemiological data that masks could reduce viral inoculum—decrease the severity of illness.
        Population masking may act as a sort of “variolation,” exposing individuals to a smaller amount of viral particles and producing an immune response.
        In a study of Syrian hamsters, for example, those infected with a higher dose of SARS-CoV-2 had worse outcomes compared to those infected with smaller amounts of virus.
        A study published in The Lancet Infectious Diseases found severe coronavirus cases were more than 60 times that of mild cases, according to Yang Liu, MD, of Nanchang University in China, and colleagues.

    2. When the journalist – David Fuller in this case – does not understand basic fundamentals of the topic he is covering, only dumb luck will yield a balanced outcome.

      It happens all of the time. How can someone who is writing all of the time about various topics have an understanding of each topic?

  4. I am quite ambivalent about you rescuing this journalist Matt. Tess Laurie has been censored on multiple platforms by all the big tech companies AND attacked by the MSM and this guy Fuller brings no less than three anti-ivermectin zealots to debate Tess Laurie. Fuller’s and his zealot’s arguments against Ivermectin are full of red herrings and insane memes from the internet and he gives maybe 15-20% of airtime to Laurie. There is nothing fair and balanced in his presentation. You should have left this in the trash can where it belongs.

  5. I watched the Fuller video and I still don’t understand why Australian researcher Gideon Meyerowitz-Katz keeps referring to the claims of 100% efficacy for Ivermectin don’t add up according to his data analysis.

    He does mention one person making the claim of 100% effectiveness but that’s one out of over a hundred studies. Even this was selective stats within a few small studies where no one within a trial group came down with Covid but that doesn’t add up to an efficacy claim of 100%.

    While “observational studies” don’t measure up to the gold standard of randomized controls case files of patients and follow up interviews can determine if A) the patients actually had covid symptoms and B) whether their condition improved?

    Both critics made good points but currently it is only clinical doctors doing actual treatment, usually with a combination of drugs that are providing treatments for patients who have symptoms that aren’t sever enough to require hospitalization.

    Since this represents the vast majority covid cases it underscores the value of these clinical observations.

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