human rights Nick Turse Ukraine

The Civilian Deaths You Haven’t Heard About

Casualties of America's never-ending global war on terror
Photo by Daniel Berehulak/New York Times/Redux/eyevine

By Nick Turse / TomDispatch

Madogaz Musa Abdullah still remembers the phone call. But what came next was a blur. He drove for hours, deep into the Libyan desert, speeding toward the border with Algeria. His mind buckled, his thoughts reeled, and more than three years later, he’s still not certain how he made that six-hour journey.

The call was about his younger brother, Nasser, who, as he told me, was more than a sibling to him. He was also a close friend. Nasser was polite and caring. He loved music, sang, and played the guitar. Jimi Hendrix, Carlos Santana, and Bob Marley were his favorites.

Abdullah finally found Nasser near the village of Al Awaynat. Or, rather, he found all that remained of him. Nasser and 10 others from their village of Ubari had been riding in three SUVs that were now burnt-out hunks of metal. The 11 men had been incinerated. Abdullah knew one of those charred corpses was his brother, but he was at a loss to identify which one.

If these bodies had recently been found strewn about in the village of Staryi Bykiv, in the streets of Bucha, outside a train station in Kramatorsk, or elsewhere in Ukraine where Russian forces have regularly killed civilians, the images would have been splashed across the Internet, earning worldwide attention and prompting fierce — and justified — outrage. Instead, the day after the attack, November 29, 2018, U.S. Africa Command (AFRICOM) issued a press release that was met with almost universal silence.

“In coordination with the Libyan Government of National Accord (GNA), U.S. Africa Command conducted a precision airstrike near Al Awaynat, Libya, November 29, 2018, killing eleven (11) al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb (AQIM) terrorists and destroying three (3) vehicles,” it read. “At this time, we assess no civilians were injured or killed in this strike.” Photos of the aftermath of the attack, posted on Twitter that same day, have been retweeted less than 30 times in the last three and a half years.

Ever since then, Abdullah and his Tuareg community in Ubari have been insisting to anyone who would listen that Nasser and the others riding in those vehicles were civilians. And not just civilians, but GNA veterans who had fought terrorist groups like al-Qaeda and even, alongside the United States two years earlier, the Islamic State in the city of Sirte. For more than three years now, despite public protests and pleas to the Libyan government for an impartial investigation, the inhabitants of Ubari have been ignored. “Before the strike, we trusted AFRICOM. We believed that they worked for the Libyan people,” Abdullah told me. “Now, they have no credibility. Now, we know that they kill innocent people.”

Hellfire in Libya

Earlier this month, Abdullah, along with a spokesperson for his ethnic Tuareg community and representatives of three nongovernmental organizations — the European Center for Constitutional and Human Rights, Italy’s Rete Italiana Pace e Disarmo, and Reprieve, a human rights advocacy group — filed a criminal complaintagainst Colonel Gianluca Chiriatti, the former Italian commander at the U.S. air base in Sigonella, Italy, from which that American drone took off. They were seeking accountability for his role in the killing of Nasser and those other 10 men. The complainants requested that the public prosecutor’s office in Siracusa, where the base is located, prosecute Colonel Chiriatti and other Italian officials involved in that air strike for the crime of murder.

“The drone attack of 29 November 2018 where 11 innocent people lost their lives in Libya is part of the broader U.S. program of extrajudicial killings. This program is based on a notion of pre-emptive self-defense that does not meet the canons of international law, as the use of lethal attacks of this nature is only legitimate where the state is acting to defend itself against an imminent threat to life. In this circumstance, the victims posed no threat,” reads the criminal complaint. “In light of this premise, the drone attack on Al Awaynat on 29 November 2018 stands in frontal contrast to the discipline, Italian and international, regarding the use of lethal force in the context of law enforcement operations.”

For the last two decades, the United States has been conducting an undeclared war across much of the globe, employing proxy forces from Africa to Asia, deploying commandos from the Philippines to the West African nation of Burkina Faso, and conducting air strikes not only in Libya, but in AfghanistanIraqPakistanSomaliaSyria, and Yemen. Over those years, the U.S. military has taken pains to normalize the use of drone warfare outside established war zones while relying on allies around the world (as at that Italian base in Siracusa) to help conduct its global war.

“Clearly, a drone operation employing lethal force is not routine,” said Chantal Meloni, legal advisor at the European Center for Constitutional and Human Rights. “While AFRICOM is directly responsible, the Italian commander must have known about and approved the operation and can therefore be criminally responsible as an accomplice for having allowed the unlawful lethal attack.”

That November 2018 drone attack in Libya was anything but a one-off strike. During just six months in 2011, alone, U.S. MQ-1 Predator drones flying from Sigonella conducted 241 air strikes in Libya during Operation Unified Protector — the NATO air campaign against then-Libyan autocrat Muammar Gaddafi — according to retired Lt. Col. Gary Peppers, the former commander of the 324th Expeditionary Reconnaissance Squadron. The unit was responsible, he told The Intercept in 2018, for “over 20 percent of the total of all Hellfire [missiles] expended in the 14 years of the system’s deployment.”

The U.S. air war in Libya accelerated in 2016 with Operation Odyssey Lightning. That summer, the Libyan Government of National Accord requested American help in dislodging Islamic State fighters from Sirte. The Obama administration designatedthe city an “area of active hostilities,” loosening guidelines designed to prevent civilian casualties. Between August and December of that year, according to an AFRICOM press release, the U.S. carried out in Sirte alone “495 precision airstrikes against Vehicle Borne Improvised Explosive Devices, heavy guns, tanks, command and control centers, and fighting positions.”

The Shores of Tripoli

Those military strikes were nothing new. The United States has been conducting attacks in Libya since before there even was a Libya — and almost a United States. In his first address to Congress in 1801, President Thomas Jefferson spoke of coastal kingdoms in North Africa, including the “least considerable of the Barbary States,” Tripoli (now, the capital of modern Libya). His refusal to pay additional tribute to the rulers of those kingdoms in order to stop their state-sponsored privateers from seizing American sailors and cargo kicked off the Barbary Wars. In 1804, Lieutenant Stephen Decatur led a daring nighttime mission, boarding a captured U.S. ship, killing its Tripolitan defenders, and destroying it. And an attack the next year by nine Marines and a host of allied mercenaries on the North African city of Derna ensured that “the shores of Tripoli” would have prime placement in the Marine Corps hymn.

Libya has also been a long-time proving ground for new forms of air war. In November 1911 — 107 years to the month before that drone attack killed Nasser Musa Abdullah — Italian Lieutenant Giulio Gavotti conducted the world’s first modern airstrike. “Today I have decided to try to throw bombs from the aeroplane,” he wrote in a letter to his father, while deployed in Libya to fight forces loyal to the Ottoman Empire. “I take the bomb with my right hand, pull off the security tag and throw the bomb out, avoiding the wing.”

Gavotti not only pioneered the idea of launching air raids on troops far from the traditional front lines of a war, but also the targeting of civilian infrastructure when he bombed an oasis that served as a social and economic center. As Thomas Hippler put it in his book Governing from the Skies, Gavotti introduced aerial attacks on “hybrid target[s]” that “indifferently mingled civilian and military objectives.”

More than a century later, in 2016, Operation Odyssey Lightning again made Libya ground zero for the testing of new air-war concepts — in this case, urban combat involving multiple drones working in combination with local troops and U.S. Special Operations forces. As one of the drone pilots involved was quoted as saying in an Air Force news release: “Some of the tactics were created and some of the persistent attack capabilities that hadn’t been used widely before were developed because of this operation.”

According to Colonel Case Cunningham, commander of the 432nd Expeditionary Wing at Creech Air Force Base in Nevada — the headquarters of the Air Force’s drone operations — about 70% of the MQ-9 Reaper drone strikes conducted during Odyssey Lightning were close-air-support missions backing up local Libyan forces engaged in street-to-street combat. The drones, he reported, often worked in tandem with one another, as well as with Marine Corps attack helicopters and jets, helping guide the airstrikes of those conventional aircraft.

“The Deaths of Thousands of Civilians”

Despite hundreds of attacks in support of the Libyan Government of National Accord, the employment of U.S. proxies in counterterrorism missions, combat by American commandos, and more than $850 million in U.S. assistance since 2011, Libya remains one of the most fragile states on earth. Earlier this year, President Biden renewed its “national emergency” status (first invoked by President Barack Obama in 2011). “Civil conflict in Libya will continue until Libyans resolve their political divisions and foreign military intervention ends,” wrote Biden, failing to mention the U.S. “foreign military intervention” there, including that November 2018 airstrike. “The situation in Libya continues to pose an unusual and extraordinary threat to the national security and foreign policy of the United States.”

In early 2021, the Biden administration imposed limits on drone strikes and commando raids outside of conventional war zones, while launching a review of all such missions, and began writing a new “playbook” to govern counterterrorism operations. More than a year later, the results, or lack thereof, have yet to be made public. In January, Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin directed subordinates to draw up a “Civilian Harm Mitigation and Response Plan” within 90 days. That, too, has yet to be released.

Until the Defense Department overhauls its airstrike policies, civilians will continue to die in attacks. “The U.S. military has a systemic targeting problem that will continue to cost civilians their lives,” said Marc Garlasco, formerly the Pentagon’s chief of high-value targeting — in charge, that is, of the effort to kill Iraqi autocrat Saddam Hussein in 2003 — and now, the military adviser for PAX, a Dutch civilian protection organization. “Civilian deaths are not discrete events; they are symptoms of larger problems such as a lack of proper investigations, a faulty collateral-damage estimation methodology, overreliance on intelligence without considering open-source data, and a policy that does not recognize the presumption of civilian status.”

Such “larger problems” have been revealed again and again. Last March, for example, the Yemen-based group Mwatana for Human Rights released a report examining 12 U.S. attacks in Yemen, 10 of them airstrikes, between January 2017 and January 2019. Its researchers found that at least 38 Yemeni noncombatants had been killed and seven others injured in those attacks.

A June 2021 Pentagon report on civilian casualties did acknowledge one of those incidents, the death of a civilian in al-Bayda, Yemen, on January 22, 2019. Mwatana’s investigation determined that the attack killed Saleh Ahmed Mohamed al Qaisi, a 67-year-old farmer who locals said had no terrorist affiliations. The U.S. had previously acknowledged four to 12 civilian deaths in a raid by Navy SEALs on January 29, 2017, also chronicled by Mwatana (though it reported a higher death toll). As for the remaining allegations, Central Command, which oversees U.S. military operations in the Middle East, told Mwatana in an April 2021 letter that it was “confident that each airstrike hit its intended Al Qaeda targets and nothing else.”

Rigorous investigative reporting by the New York Times on the last U.S. drone strikeof the Afghan War in August 2021 forced an admission from the Pentagon. What General Mark Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, had originally deemed a “righteous strike” had actually killed 10 civilians, seven of them children. A subsequent Times investigation revealed that a 2019 U.S. airstrike in Baghuz, Syria, had killed up to 64 noncombatants, a toll previously obscured through a multilayered cover-up. The Times followed that up with an investigation of 1,300 reports of civilian casualties in Iraq and Syria, demonstrating, wrote reporter Azmat Khan, that the American air war in those countries was “marked by deeply flawed intelligence, rushed and often imprecise targeting, and the deaths of thousands of civilians, many of them children, a sharp contrast to the American government’s image of war waged by all-seeing drones and precision bombs.”

Since the Sirte campaign ended in late 2016, U.S. attacks in Libya have slowed considerably. AFRICOM conducted seven declared airstrikes there in 2017, six in 2018, four in 2019, and none since. But the U.S. military has made little effort to reevaluate past strikes and the civilian casualties they caused, including the November 2018 attack that killed Nasser Musa Abdullah. “U.S. Africa Command followed the civilian casualty assessment process in place at the time and determined that the reports were unsubstantiated,” said AFRICOM spokesperson Kelly Cahalan. Despite the criminal complaint filed on April 1st, the command is not reexamining the case. “There is nothing new or different regarding the Nov 30, 2018 airstrike,” Cahalan told me by email.

Africa Command has clearly moved on, but Abdullah can’t. Memories of his brother and those charred bodies are irrevocably lodged in his mind but get caught in his throat. “I was in shock,” he told me when discussing the phone call that preceeded his dash across the desert. “I’m so sorry, but I can’t explain in words what I felt.”

Abdullah was similarly stuck when he attempted to describe the grisly scene that greeted him hours later. He was eloquent in speaking about the justice he seeks and how being branded a “terrorist” robbed his brother and their community of dignity. But of his final memory of Nasser, there is simply nothing that can be said, not by him anyway. “What I saw was so terrible,” he told me, his voice rising, ragged and loaded with pain. “I can’t even describe it.”

Nick Turse

Nick Turse is the managing editor of TomDispatch and a fellow at the Type Media Center. He is the author most recently of Next Time They’ll Come to Count the Dead: War and Survival in South Sudan and of the bestselling Kill Anything That Moves.


  1. The US proudly describes itself as the righteous defender of democracy against tyranny. We’re nothing more than imperialist murderers. The world’s police, only interested in geopolitical gains and the pillage of natural resources at all costs, even the deaths of innocents. Am I proud to be an American? Absolutely not! I’m ashamed and disgusted!🤬🤬🤬🤬

    1. here, here! Well spoken. THIS ☝️i 2nd this motion, meeting is annihilate the kleptocratic corporatocracy. Let us turn our interweb connected RC hobby planes of fiery rainshower upon the interlocking boards of directorates. Let their blood, brain, & bone precipitate out of mist onto the treeline of the hot LZ of their castles, luxury yachts, boardrooms, the hot tubs in the backs of stretch limos with politicians, hookers, & cocaine!

    2. @Stacy
      At this point, I wish my grandparents had stayed in Europe and faced whatever fate may have awaited them. Because we’re Jewish, perhaps they’d all have been killed, and I certainly would not have been born if they hadn’t moved here and met each other (respectively). But I’d much rather sacrifice my life than be a part of this Mordor of a country that was founded by murdering the Natives and stealing their land. We just happened to be born here, but it’s not at all what I would have chosen.

      1. I certainly understand your passionate hatred of what this country has become, actually, what it’s mostly been about since it’s inception. Please, don’t wish for anything that would nullify your existence! I still have hope that with enough Americans who share our sentiment, through organization and non-violent civil disobedience, there is hope for change.

    3. Not too many like you, most are war enthusiasts even though American wars are all disastrously wrong, since after WW2.
      I really wonder if Trump had won, the Ukrainian war would be different?
      We all know he hates Ukraine and is Pro Russia and his best pal is Vlad.
      So, would, could he have listened to Putin and made a deal to prevent the invasion???

      Of course Ole Joe has been a war promoter in all his history, and he uses military solutions for all problems, it will never change but maybe if Trump returns as 47th Pres. He might fix the troubles that Nato and M I complex keeps the world in constant nuclear risk.

      TRUMP would never trade Kiev for Miami in a war or NY state for Ukraine, or Texas for Finland, or Georgia for Georgia. But old Joe sure seems to keep calling/disregard Vladimir’s bluff which it no Bluff.

      1. The only comment I will make to you: I detest Joe Biden. Donald Trump is a disgusting, lying, psychopathic, ignorant narcissist. He wanted to be Putin’s best buddy, but fell short for even Vladimir. He deferred to the warmongering generals during his term and would have most likely followed that same path now. Why even give credence to the thought of him being president again? Not too many like you,,

      2. @Keith Mcmaugh
        Sorry, but you’ve got it backward regarding the war in Ukraine. Despite Biden’s previous war mongering, he’s been the one to stand up to all the Dr. Strangeloves and General Rippers who want a no-fly zone and/or to send U.S. troops to fight Russia in Ukraine. If Trump had been in office, we’d probably all be dead from nuclear war by now, because Trump doesn’t care about anything but money and his ego, and he clearly showed that he can’t offer even the slightest resistance to war mongers and/or the military/intelligence/industrial complex.

        To be clear, Biden is a complete pig and is largely responsible for the current war. But at least he’s resisted doing insane things regarding the situation in Ukraine that would have pushed us toward nuclear war.

      3. that sounds good. but I’d like to get it straight. is Biden a thing or not? is he a dumb dummy frontispiece put there by a bunch of virtually secret ‘manipulators’ and the real controllers of the country or is he his own man?
        i.e. to whom should we really ascribe those actions – all of them, from him virtually causing it to him choosing not to escalate wildly?

      4. @arthur brogard
        In political science 101 in college we were taught that the rich run the country and the politicians to their bidding. I have no reason to believe that doesn’t apply to Biden, but that’s all I know about this. Why is this so important to you?

      5. Why would you like to know why it is important to me?
        You think it is an unimportant thing? A given perhaps? Unremarkable? Applies everywhere?

        I don’t think so, or I hope not.

        But the point is our MSM – and others – make a big point of ‘Biden is decrepit’. And so on.

        But if Biden is a mere puppet where’s the relevance in that?

        I seek to avoid misdirection. They direct my attention to Biden but is it Biden?

        Same thing applies, sort of, when international politics is discussed, such as right now concerning Ukraine. They all talk of ‘Russia’ and ‘Ukraine’ and their aims, ambttions, needs, historic destiny etc. etc.. But what’s it mean? Who/what are they talking about? The people of those countries? The governments of those countries? Powerful cabals such as you infer? And so on.
        We are in a world of lying misinformation and it is all based on loose terminology, it appears to me. Getting clear just who/what you’re talking about can help with rational thinking a great deal.
        Call a spade a spade kind of thing.

      6. @arthur brogard
        Well, you can either continue believing that we live in a democracy, or you can face reality. Read Tammany Hall. The rich run things, the politicians are just their puppets.

      7. so let’s talk like that. don’t say ‘Biden’, don’t even say ‘the govt’, don’t even say ‘the democrats’, say whoever it is/was.

      8. @arthur brogard
        I don’t understand your request. All I said about Biden is that he’s not an exception to -politicians being puppets for the ruling class. I realize that “puppets” is an exaggeration, but you’re easily smart enough to know what I mean.

      9. @jeff

        bit of a nuisance there being no real obvious clarity as to which posts any comment is referring to.

        I think perhaps you have me wrong. In truth I’ve lost the actual thread but all my remarks, attitudes, opinions, about this ‘name’ thing – is it ‘Biden’ or is it ‘The Govt’ or is it a hidden cabal, etc. etc… is an expression of my thought is all. In general.

        That we all are not specific enough.

        Never that I recall to date at least ever directed to any one particular person and what they’ve said.

        I was not being personal. I try never to be.

  2. The sad thing is there’s nothing new about this. this is not news. we’ve known it’s like this since at least the gulf war. ever since then we of the west have had to accept that we are not the wholesome ‘goodies’ that we thought we were.
    we are, courtesy of our ‘leadership’ and our own apathy, rotten, corrupt, greedy, vicious, treacherous, duplicitous.. etc. etc..
    we are part of a villainous system.
    and in the last two years we’ve seen that system turn on us ourselves, flagrantly.
    just to remove any last lingering doubts we may have had.

  3. If your story doesn’t match the dominant narrative, (official propaganda,) you don’t count. Too effing bad. Not only is this morally unconscionable, it’s incredibly stupid. Winning military tactics require allies. Successful politics and diplomacy mean considering all the effects of current strategies. But then long term thinking has seldom been a US trait, like what Chalmers Johnson covers so well in his book /Blowback./ So then the list of supporters gets shorter while the opposition grows, and the short-sighted reaction that “if you’re not with us you’re against us” kicks in. The overseas war on terror spreads…it could be anybody anywhere.

    This mindset infects the domestic situation, too. The majority of Americans are invisible to the econ/pol power elite. As exemplified by the Dems, who did for Rust Belt workers what they did to the Wall St. vultures: nothing! We workers used to be personnel; we morphed into “human resources”–things like other ecosystem derivatives to be used up, the remains trashed. The results are US landscapes and communities that resemble bombed-out war zones.

    All opposing the dominant domestic US narrative are ignored. If they become too loud or too organized, they are labeled as anti-American, threats to national security, or even ultimately as domestic terrorists. Whether desperate working class people taken in by Trump, right wing libertarians and isolationists, or what’s left of us real leftists. Thus the war on “terror” continues. Threats to the econ empire, whether foreign or domestic, are everywhere.

    When the 1%ers and their enforcers, the admin elite 20%ers feel threatened, they clamp down on those pesky Constitutional and treaty rights their lessers claim to have. As dissent grows, so does the oppression. It’s terminal Empire.

  4. but just like operation Iraqi liberation (oil), all mouthpieces are on deck hammering on the drums of war

    ….blithely obliging blathering

  5. Yes, worthy and unworthy victims. Good column except for this:

    “… where Russian forces have regularly killed civilians …” What CREDIBLE evidence do you have showing this? What evidence do you have showing that Russian forces have done this any more than any other military force does?

    1. I was just also writing about this. The article is otherwise very good but to say russians are regularly killing civilians and mentioning bucha is again promoting the narrative. There is no evidence about this intentional killing of civilians by russian forces

      1. @Vesa Sainio
        Any time a corporate/establishment/mainstream claims that Russia or any other enemy is committing war- or human rights crimes, I disbelieve it without substantial and credible evidence. This stuff is just war propaganda & lies, and anyone with half a brain should know that.

      2. but there’s plenty of evidence of the arming of civilians and encouraging them to kill russians, I believe?
        What effect might that be expected to have on the Russian troops and the desire to distinguish and differently treat non-combatants?
        And these vast stocks of weapons and munitions being gleefully funneled into the country and distributed down to local home level – where are they kept?
        In all conflicts I know of with similar ‘dynamics’ (meaning close interaction with soldiers and civilians) there’s much effort gone into finding weapon stores and much destruction attendant upon that: vietnam, Ireland, afghanistan etc..
        So what effect does that have on the capacity of the invading troops to minimise property damage and respect non-combatant ‘rights’ (such as they are) ?
        I have just got and looked into ‘The War Against Putin’ by MS King and of course at this stage I know little about the total veracity of it but there’s such a damning stack of stuff in there that if any at all is true then there’s much injustice done to Putin and Russia.
        I wonder why there is no mention of this book, that side of the story, by anyone?

  6. Every day the mass media trumpets the horrors of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, but ignores the long history of Western racism and brutal destruction of innocent people, we assure that destruction of this sort will continue to be tolerated and ignored. For most Americans, stories like this are an irritating intrusion into their enjoyment of American Idol and similar drivel.

    We have become the Roman mob.

  7. “If these bodies had recently been found strewn about in the village of Staryi Bykiv, in the streets of Bucha, outside a train station in Kramatorsk, or elsewhere in Ukraine where Russian forces have regularly killed civilians, the images would have been splashed across the Internet,.”

    Great article, except I was surprised by the above sentence. To say in such a matter-of-fact manner that Russian forces have regularly killed civilians in those cities suggests that either you know a lot more than intelligence personnel or they’ve planted that pat belief in your head.

  8. If African countries had governments with military, police and security apparatus dominated by white supremacist Nationalists, like Viceroy Biden’s Ukraine since the Maidan Coup in 2014, the State Media would be all over these civilian deaths (provided of course they can be used to advance America’s official narratives.)

  9. The left-ish Neo Progressive obsession with insisting Putin’s war crimes in Ukraine are similar to the US accidental killing of civilians in middle eastern countries is puzzling for many reasons. For example, it is completely devoid of context: it lumps together Bush’s (fake) WMD invasion of Iraq with Obama’s attempts to stop the massacre of Arab Spring protesters in Libya and Syria (while magically failing to mention Russian civilian killings in Syria during the same period), or fails to account for other factors which distinguish Putin’s invasion of Ukraine, like the Russian systemic imperialism (the conquest of Crimea, the conquest of South Ossetia and Abkhazia in Georgia, the Cyber attack of Estonia for moving a Soviet era status, the attempt to extend the ‘liberation’ of Donetsk and Lubansk to southern Ukraine, the attempt to expand the Ukraine imperialist invasion to other former Soviet conquests), or the fact that Putin’s proxy war against NATO, the US and the EU threatens to evolve into WW III nuclear conflict.

    That aside, the goal of this left-ish bizarre obsession is unclear, especially since its listing fails to including any civilian killings where the US or NATO are not involved (e.g., Putin’s current killings and raping in Ukraine, the East Timor Genocide, the Bosnian Genocide, the Rwanda Genocide, the Rabaa massacre, the Khartoum massacre, the thousands of civilian deaths of Arab Spring protesters in Syria and Libya and so on).

    Elsewhere here another Neo Progressive demagogue decried a distinction between ‘worthy’ and ‘unworthy’ civilian victims of war. So what makes Ukrainian deaths less ‘worthy’, to the point that left-ish pundits and flock require an account of other deaths to even consider them in the ‘worthy’ category?

    1. Obama trying to save protesters in Arab spring. Are you kidding, really. Did he use white helmets or al gaeda or both.

      1. @Vesa Sainio
        DGA is a far right USA USA troll on this site. Don’t let them get your blood pressure up.

    1. @A handful of trouble at every turn
      GWAR was a joke band. What was it right about?

      Good band though. Good music and hilarious, couldn’t stop laughing the first time I saw them.

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