By Robert Scheer and Ray McGovern / Original to ScheerPost
In the late 1930s, two boys were born in the Bronx, N.Y, and later went on to receive modest but substantive college educations — one at Fordham University, the other at City College of New York—and both would come to challenge presidents and rub shoulders with the most powerful people in the world … from completely opposite perspectives.
Fordham grad Ray McGovern earned an MA in Russian language, literature and history and would spend 27 years at the CIA, working his way into high-ranking positions, counseling seven presidents and giving daily White House intelligence briefings. CCNY’s Robert Scheer studied economics and Chinese studies at UC Berkeley graduate school, edited one of the most consequential anti-war magazines of the ‘60s, Ramparts Magazine, which exposed crimes of the intelligence/military apparatus—the CIA—that Ray himself came to criticize. Like McGovern, Scheer also connected with presidents, interviewing five of them, all of whom are featured in one of his several books, “Playing President.”
While these two old guys from the same neighborhood went through two vastly different career trajectories, they’ve united after 60 years to deliver a new and original ScheerPost weekly series, “Playing President,” in which Scheer plays one of the tough hard-headed presidents, and McGovern plays himself, briefing the modern “president” about current issues. Their respective experience and origins come through in an entertainingly humorous, but undeniably educational, experience.
Credits
Host:
Introduction:
Transcript
McGovern: [00:00:00] Good morning, Mr. President. Good to see you this morning. I have three items of priority, and would be happy to talk about anything else you’d like to discuss. The first is that tomorrow the flotilla that is going to bring relief, that is, medical supplies and food to Gaza hopes to leave Turkey.
They are boarding as we speak. The fly in the ointment would be Turkish permission to leave. And we have a Washington Post article now, just four days ago, where one of the organizers, Ann Wright, a colonel in the army and a former diplomat, says this very diplomatically. The regional dynamics are challenging. We’re planning to leave tomorrow. But we are at the mercy of the port authorities [00:01:00] in Turkey. One of the other organizers, a Palestinian American lawyer who went aboard has said that our government, that is the United States government, she’s a US citizen, has done nothing to support us in this venture to bring relief to Gaza.
And she says that we expect, this is a quote, “we expect that Turkey will not be bought off, and we will indeed sail tomorrow. Anything less would be seen as collaborating with the illegal siege of Gaza, and we don’t think that the Turkish government will want to be seen as doing that.” Now, Mr. President, at the beginning of the Gaza troubles, the Turks made a big show of sending relief.
They were going to send a flotilla of boats, but that never eventuated for some reason. So right now, the [00:02:00] have to make a decision as to whether they’re going to allow the flotilla with 5,500 tons of medical and food supplies to leave tomorrow for Gaza. For Gaza, there’s no indication, number one, that the Israeli authorities will act any more kindly than they did in shooting up those seven aid people just a week or so ago.
And number two, again, there’s no indication that the U. S. government has spoken out in support of the U. S. citizens of whom there are several on the Turkish flotilla. There are many, many nations represented here and hundreds of human rights observers. Mr. President, we just want to let you know that tomorrow is a very important day.
And our experience with these kinds of things is that when people are beholden to the United States, they listen [00:03:00] to what the United States tells them, and I’ll just add one, one short footnote here. In 2011, there was a U. S. boat to Gaza, a small boat carrying just letters and other gestures of support, that was about to leave in July of 2011.
And it was the U. S. that weighed in with the Greek authorities. We got nine nautical miles out of Piraeus, the harbor of Athens, when the Greek Coast Guard very reluctantly and almost shamefacedly turned us around, saying they had orders from their government to turn us around and not let us sail to Gaza.
The end of that story of course was that the IMF was really needed to give loans to Greece at that time. And there was no way that the U. S. would approve that kind of loan if we were not turned back.
Scheer: Ray, first of all, [00:04:00] why am I what is this? We are dropping food in Gaza. We’re trying to get Netanyahu to let more food in.
We don’t need this public relations disgrace we have now. And why do I need an ex colonel on our flotilla mucking about here? What are they doing? Looking for a photo op or something like that? We got our hands full here and it’s hardly seems that this rises to something we’ve got to spend a lot of time on.
We’re doing the best we can. We’re getting land crossings in with food. We’re trying to get Netanyahu not to kill any more of these people because now people on these college campuses and everything here, they’re blaming me for it, and I can’t control Netanyahu. He’s got Trump in his pocket.
It’s going to destroy the whole election and you’re telling me about some peacenik types that want to bring a small boat in and showboat with it. Let’s get on with it. What else you got?
McGovern: Thank you, Mr. [00:05:00] President. I just wanted to let you know that tomorrow is likely to be a very big PR day, whether or not the Turks allow this flotilla to leave.
With respect to Netanyahu.
Scheer: Hey, Ray, Are these old friends of yours? Did you know Colonel Wright? Do you know these people?
McGovern: I do.
Scheer: Okay, then you tell them they’re just going to make things more confusing and they’re not helping anybody here, okay?
McGovern: I will tell them that you asked me to tell them that Mr. President, these people are justice people. They will not be deterred. If you’d like to move on to the next subject, I’d be happy to do that.
Scheer: Go for it, Ray.
McGovern: Okay. Today is another special day. It’s April 25. On the 25th of April 1945, you and I were just young people at the time. There was a meeting of U.S. and Soviet forces on the river Elbe [00:06:00] in the eastern part of Germany. This was the first time after many years of struggle against the Nazi armies that the U. S. and Soviet forces came together. There are wonderful photo displays of how they met on the Elbe and that was April 25, 1945. The rejoicing lasted all the way until the victory two weeks later, and it was clear that the Russians bore the brunt of the Nazi invasion.
Imagine, Mr. President, 26, 27 million Soviet citizens dead but we helped. We helped immensely with Lend Lease, with providing, let me tell you a little story. I was in Moscow for the 70th anniversary, that would have been 2015, and after I gave a little speech I recited a poem actually. A great tall, a tall [00:07:00] six foot three Soviet general came up to me, all decked out in a Soviet uniform, his dress uniform, and he looked at me, he knew no English, what he said was Studebaker, studebaker, studebaker! And then he gave me this Great big Russian hug. Okay, bear hug. Okay. Now, what was that all about? For your listeners or your viewers, many would not know that Studebaker auto manufacturing in the Middle West of our country turned over its entire operation to creating, to making Trucks, jeeps vehicles that pulled artillery.
It was, we were providing that in hundreds of thousands to the Russians through Iran at the time. And without that kind of provision it’s doubtful that the Russians could have won. At least they would not have won so early. And we not, we would not have met at the Elbe.
[00:08:00] Whanat do you
Scheer: want me to do, Ray?
Make some pronouncement about this?
McGovern: I’m trying to say, Mr. President, that this was the high water of U. S. Russian cooperation. Right now, things are at the opposite extreme.
Scheer: Yeah,I don’t need a lecture about that, Ray but let me just say I’m here, I’m gonna, I’m in sync with you. That Stalin is looking pretty good compared to this guy Putin.
We had deals with them. Yeah, we had, we cooperated and then the people came after. It makes you want to be back in the old days with the communists. This guy Putin, we put, helped put him in office. We backed Yeltsin. And we thought this guy would be easier to work with. So you were supposed to be a big Russia expert.
What’s going on here? He was our guy, Putin. We put him in there and he ran an election. He defeated the communists. So why is he giving us this hard time? Yeah. This nostalgia of yours is very interesting. We got [00:09:00] along with the commies when they were commies, those Russians, but we’re not getting along with them now.
This guy claims to be Russian Orthodox. He believes in God. He, the whole deal here, why isn’t he playing ball with us instead of taking us on all over the place?
McGovern: Mr. President, with all due respect,
Scheer: you’re the head of the Russia section, aren’t you? The Soviet, used to be the Soviet, you’re the head of that.
You speak Russian, right? You’re supposed to be an expert. Why is this guy Putin such a bad actor?
McGovern: Actually, it’s a matter of opinion if you look at it from the Western side or from the Eastern side. First off, Yeltsin was our man, not Putin.
Scheer: Yeah, but Yeltsin, we had to get rid of Yeltsin. He was a drunk.
He couldn’t even show up in office. So they gave me Putin. I was in on that. They gave me Putin because he doesn’t drink. He doesn’t drink and he hated the communists by that point. They all were communists at one point, but now he was the anti-communist. They ran against him. He defeated them. He was supposed to be our guy.
We were putting in money there and everything. So what’s going on with this guy? Alba is very nice and all that. We got along with the commies. We get along with the Chinese commies until recently. They want to make fancy stuff now, make more profit, give Apple a hard time, and so forth.
But, what’s going on? Why with this guy Putin? What’s he doing with the Ukraine and all that stuff? What’s going on? You’re the Russia expert here. That’s why. You’re right. You’ve been doing that for how many years now, Ray? 27 years. You’ve been our, one of our key guys in the CIA. We’ve been paying you to figure these people out.
Tell me what, what’s going on here with Ukraine, where I just spent a lot of money. We’re sending them what, 60 billion more or something. That’s not jump change. I’m going to be hearing that. It’s going to be part of my legacy that, dumped all this money there. Tell me what’s happening.
Congress just sending me a bill now that they’re going to send all that money to Israel that doesn’t [00:11:00] listen to me at all. And then you got to get me involved in Taiwan. And now you’re doing the Ukraine again. So what’s up?
McGovern: Mr. President with respect to Putin’s accession to power, that was a surprise to everyone when Yeltsin decided I screwed this country up so much that maybe I picked somebody that has some prospect of putting it back in order.
That was Putin. And he has done that. First thing he did was offer to President Clinton, Hey, why don’t we join NATO? Let Russia join NATO. And Clinton said I hadn’t thought of that. And he checked with his team and he came back that evening and said no, no way. We, Clinton did say this, but we need an enemy.
Okay, we need to have Russia an enemy, not an ally. Now, fast forward. Fast forward to where we are now in Europe. Let
Scheer: me check you on that, Ray. I’m being a little hard on you this morning, but you know a lot of this stuff. How come? Nixon could get along with these [00:12:00] commies, with the Russians when they were commies.
How come Reagan he got along with that guy Gorbachev, right? He got along with him, still a commie. And they, they were gonna even get, we had to stop them because Reagan was gonna cut out the, all these weapons and everything. Thought we were in a whole new era of peace. That was a dream, that would never happen.
W e ‘ll destroy the American economy. We ever cut out these warm stuff and, a lot of luck getting elected to be an assemblyman in Idaho or something, but what’s going on here? What is the whole deal?
McGovern: After the Soviet Union imploded, Mr.
President, there was the prospect of having peace in Europe. George H. W. Bush talked about you are free and secure from Lisbon to Vladivostok. That didn’t happen. Why it didn’t happen is a piece of history that shows that the West was not ready for Russia to join NATO. [00:13:00] Worse than that, the West was ready to break its promise made under George H.W. Bush not to move NATO, a military alliance, one inch to the east of Germany, which they did. They doubled the size of it, and the crucial point came with respect to Ukraine. The Russians said, Ukraine is a bridge too far. It’s a red line. Please, don’t even think. Niet means niet. Don’t even think about it bringing Ukraine into NATO, and that was the fly in the ointment. The head of NATO, in testimony to the European Parliament, said, the Russians said, if you bring Ukraine into NATO, we will have to invade. And Stoltenberg, the Secretary General of NATO, said we told him, “ha, we’re going to bring Finland, we’re going to bring Sweden, we’re going to expand NATO.”
And so Putin got an expanded [00:14:00] NATO. And of course, we turned down his offer not to admit Ukraine. And so he invaded. So that was the name of the game.
Scheer: I know I approved that but I was told that the Russians would just collapse, that nothing worked there. And, and Putin would be, stop being this irritant.
He’d be housebroken and, which is what we had in mind in the first place. And so what’s going on here and what’s going to happen to my 60 billion that we’re now sending the?. That’s not chump change. What are they going to do with it? How much of it stays with us, by the way, because that’s good for jobs, right?
It’s good for the American economy.
McGovern: Yeah Mr. President, you and Secretary Blinken and others have made clear that 80 percent of that money will remain in the United States. What’s left over for Ukraine is Even if it was the whole Shamir, even if it was the whole package, it’s not going to change the trajectory of the war [00:15:00] in which Russia is winning.
Now, I know this may be a surprise to you because you yourself were persuaded to say last July, that Putin had already lost the war, and your CIA chief had said yeah, the Russian military has been exposed for being terribly ineffectual for the whole world to see. Luckily, nobody’s asking you why you thought that then, but if you still think that you’re really you’re being misled.
Now there’s a big contest within the intelligence community and within the pundits, the pundit circle, as to what this package will mean. And what I would like to do is just tell you that today, one of these pretty establishment think tanks called the Quincy Center had an article authored by a fellow who used to run Russian analysis for the CIA. He was after my time. His name is George Beebe. And this is what he says. [00:16:00] Kicking the can down. Who did he
Scheer: work for? Did he used to work for? Who did he work? What president?
McGovern: He worked for the CIA as head of Russian analysis in his most important capacity. Now that was 10 years ago.
Here’s what he’s saying today in the in the Quincy Institute’s piece in Responsible Statecraft, quote, You’re kicking the can down the crumbling road in Ukraine. Without a strategy, the new aid could be the worst thing to happen ever to Ukraine. And he goes on, If Washington were intentionally to design a formula for Ukraine’s destruction, It might look a lot like the aid package passed by Congress this week.
Scheer: What’s he talking about? He’s saying that we’re going to give them all the money Zelensky asked for, and they’re going to crumble? Don’t these things hit more [00:17:00] targets? Don’t they wipe out the Russian advantage? Aren’t this is our most, some of our most advanced weaponry? You’re telling me this stuff doesn’t turn the corner on this?
McGovern: That’s correct. Mr. President, I’m sorry if you are being informed to that effect by others. But this is BeeBee, and this is the people who I trust on Russian analysis, and they’re saying, as Beebee says here, quote, the package includes enough military and economic support to sustain Kiev’s hopes for a few more months, but nowhere near enough to defeat Russian forces.
He finishes up with this sentence. The new age is spending that lacks a coherent plan. for making it effective. That makes it a formula for prolonging, not ending the war. It will almost guarantee that Ukraine will continue throwing its dwindling resources of manpower into a war it cannot win and which is [00:18:00] wreaking even more havoc on Ukraine’s infrastructure and its prospects for future prosperity.
It will amount to both a waste of money and even more disturbingly, A waste of Ukrainian lives. Now, bear in mind, Mr. President, this same guy, George Beebe, said just two months ago, Oh, we need to provide more defensive military aid for Ukraine. So I trust him this time because he sees the handwriting on the wall.
But he comes out of this establishment empire now, this think tank responsible statescraft. So we need to pay a little bit of attention to people who are not agreeing with those who tell you that Ukraine can turn the page now. They cannot. Let me set, say one other thing, Mr. President, Mr.
President, because you were vice president at this time. It was very very revealing that Mr. Obama, president during your vice presidency put the nail on the head [00:19:00] or hit the nail on the head when he said “look arming the Ukrainians would encourage the notion that they could actually defeat the far more powerful Russians.”
And so it would potentially draw a much more forceful response from Moscow. And then a senior department, State Department person said, and this is really worth thinking about Mr. President, because I’m going to tell you who that senior State Department person was. This is back under Obama. If you’re playing on the military terrain in Ukraine, you’re playing to Russia’s strength, because Russia is right next door.
It has a huge amount of military equipment and military force right on the border. It’s true. Anything we did as countries in terms of military support for Ukraine is likely to be matched and then doubled and tripled and quadrupled by Russia, end quote. Who is that person you think? [00:20:00] It was Tony Blinken, 2015.
What changed? Why is it nine years later? That the Russians can still be defeated when they’re on the verge of winning. So our caution to you Mr. President is to find out the right people to listen to well,
Scheer: where’d you dig that up, Ray? He said that
McGovern: yeah For the New York Times like the house
Scheer: I get it.
But wait a second now Why don’t the reporters what how come they’re not asking them? Huh? How come it doesn’t come up? What are you’re just doing opposition research here on me?
McGovern: Mr. President we who do media analysis. have to pay as much attention to what prominent newspapermen and officials say on the U.S. side as on, on the Russian side. Yeah, we pay close attention to this and we glean these insights. And this was on the front page of the New York Times. Peter Baker is, is like A house journalist for the
Scheer: When was that, though? What [00:21:00] when?
McGovern: Was
Scheer: That’s ancient history, or what?
Was recently, or when he said it?
McGovern: No, that was back in 2015.
Scheer: Yeah, so they’ve forgotten it now, so it doesn’t come up, right?
McGovern: Oh, it doesn’t come up. Now you it’s really hard to Google these things. People of my age print things out and put them in files. In that way, we’re
Scheer: I got it, Ray.
Don’t waste my time with this. Look, the fact is, I’m only listening to you because you’ve been here, what, 27 years or something? I scribbled down the number. I didn’t know anybody lasts that long at the CIA. But, they must value you you there. And let me really ask you, let me cut to the chase.
I’ll talk to you as one person familiar with this whole political national security situation, and that you are and I am, and we all know that I got it right about the military. I’m tired of hearing about it. If I ever try to speak at some college, some kid asked me, but what did Eisenhower say about the military industrial?
Okay, we [00:22:00] all know that. We all know I can’t take him on and still win the election, right? And the fact of the matter is, in this election, the one thing I got against Trump, what’s gonna drive me crazy about my being, what, a few years older than him and everything else, I’m gonna have him there as Putin’s simp.
I can’t be soft on these Russians. I don’t mean to be cynical here. I obviously care more about the country and its interest. But the fact of the matter is, in an election, and we are in election, let me remind you, Ray I, I could actually do withtout these morning briefs.
You know that you’ve had presidents You know, say, Oh, wait a minute, I got to sleep in. I think Reagan said that to you. I got to sleep in the morning and you just go talk to Weinberger or somebody like that, but let me just say a fact of the matter is in this election. He, the one time that these Republicans campaigned, the Democrat is some kind of pinko lefty or something, because I got plenty of people on this House Progressive Caucus and everything.
There [00:23:00] are some people getting on my case. What I got is that he’s Putin sim, right? So you want me to deny Ukraine whatever it asks for, and I agree. Clearly, we’re not doing well there. Clearly, victory is not going to happen. But, there’s two things that bother me about what you’re saying.
I have been told that we have the best weapons in the world. You’re telling me they don’t give us any big advantage over these drunken Russians, who’s supposed to have, they can’t make anything. They got no industry. That’s one thing. And the other is, the money comes back to us anyway. It’s jobs in the United States.
You’re telling me that I should be hardline and deny the Ukrainians everything they’re asking for, or the Israelis. That’s another one. Lots of luck winning the election if I do that. And you’re telling me that I have to be concerned. When have we ever won a war? We haven’t won a war. We didn’t even win the World War II.
You know that. The Russians had to sacrifice all those people and everything. So what is it you’re really telling [00:24:00] me? I’m only giving you the respect of your 27 years in the CIA. That’s what I’m doing now. I really want one insider to another. Let’s face it. We’re both on the inside here. And tell me, what am I supposed to do?
I cut aid to Ukraine. Trump, he’s off the hook on his Russian, coddling of Russia. I can’t even use that. He’ll call me a commie or something, right? And I cut aid to Israel? Forget it. He’s going to be more pro Netanyahu, after all, Trump’s the guy, he brought, was Netanyahu came in the last election came to Congress, he denounced Obama, that you keep bringing up, right?
He denounced him in the Congress, and Trump will be more pro Israel than anybody. So what am I going to do? You got a little political, I’m only extending this courtesy to you because you’ve been around so long, you know the Russian language, you’ve been our key guy on Russia, you know a lot about the Mideast, if you were president, what would you do?
Would you really cut funding to Ukraine? [00:25:00] And would you really deny Netanyahu every penny he wants?
McGovern: Mr. President. With all due respect I prescind from political considerations. Intelligence analysts are supposed to be deaf to domestic politics.
Scheer: Yeah. Lots of luck. Lots of luck. Take some lessons from your boss.
Those guys got it all figured out going back to Bill Casey and everybody. They, come on they, what you’re telling me, I’m, I don’t buy into the deep state stuff, but you and I know they got their political agendas, they got their budgets, we don’t even know what their budget is half the time, and your budget, I don’t even know what you make there over the CIA, so let’s be a little bit realistic here.
What’s happening? You’re basically trying to get me to take positions that would cost me this election.
McGovern: The function of an intelligence analyst is to inform the president so that he doesn’t miss [00:26:00] important things that other advisors might not tell him about. What I’m telling you, Mr. President, is that the new aid that will go to Ukraine will not stop A Soviet a Russian win, okay?
Scheer: A Russian win before or after the election?
McGovern: That’s the point.
Scheer: If it’s after the election, and it’s over, and we’ve defeated the menace of Trump, okay, who is bad for the country, All right. The defeat comes after the election. We’re sorry. We’ll give aid. We’ll try to make amends. People who want to come live here, they can live in San Diego or something.
Give them nice homes. Zelinsky can have a nice place, and so forth. That’s not going to be a big problem. They win before the election, I’ve got a big problem. But, if I’ve given them all the aid they want, Then Trump can’t keep pounding me on the head. If I cut what Congress is now, after all, Congress, Republicans and Democrats, are going to [00:27:00] hand me a bill to sign that’s going to give all this money.
If I pull back, if I veto that, if I don’t sign that you can goodbye to the election. You can buy an election. I lose my main issue. I can’t call them a simp of the Russians. Now the Ukrainians are going to attack me, right? And that, so what are you asking me? You’re asking me to commit political suicide.
I’m only saying this to you honestly, because you’ve been around for 27 years at the CIA. I know you’re not, you are an impartial observer, an expert on the whole thing. But do you really want me, and would you be happy with Trump winning and I commit political suicide this way?
McGovern: Mr. President once again, it’s really hard to explain.
Scheer: Don’t give me the party line about you’re an expert. I’m partial. It’s never worked that way. You know it and I know it, right? So just tell me straight. Tell me straight. What can I do that’s the smart thing to do that’s also not going to cost me the election?
McGovern: Mr. President, you are a human being. What I [00:28:00] want you to do is to realize.
That another 300, 400, 500, 000 Ukrainian army people are going to be killed if this goes on to pass the election. Ukrainians can’t possibly win with the weapons that we’re able to supply them now. We don’t have them. They’re not been produced yet. For people who tell you this is just going to be fine, Mr.
President, you just get through the election. You should be aware, and this is informational, not prescriptive, okay? You should be aware that you’ll be responsible for several hundred thousand more deaths in Ukraine and more destruction of its infrastructure. Now, your political problems are something else.
I don’t even pretend to give you guidance on that, but just so you could be aware, just so that
Scheer: all right, Ray, and I do respect your service. I do respect your service. I respect your [00:29:00] knowledge. Congratulations, by the way, you got that big award. What was that award they just gave you?
McGovern: Oh, the Intelligence Commendation Medallion.
Scheer: That’s a big one, right?
McGovern: Yeah, it’s Yeah, so you’re not like,
Scheer: you’re not like those commie simps on the flotillas or anything, right? Once they, when they retire, they suddenly become peaceniks and everything. You’re not like that. But, Ray, you got your job, and I appreciate the information you’re giving me.
Next week make it a little bit more useful to me. Let’s put it that way, you went on a bit long today. You’re, you’re peacenik edge is coming out here a little bit. Surprising for a guy with 20. Didn’t you actually start as An army intelligence person before he even went to the CIA?
McGovern: I did, yeah. That’s a
Scheer: long way from the Bronx, Ray. It’s a long career that Fordham University. I thought those Jesuits would have educated you better. Nonetheless, I respect your knowledge, I respect your intelligence. But next week, you got to give me some information I can live with and [00:30:00] use, I don’t need another big long history lesson. I’ve got to know what my options are, and I’m just going to tell you straight, one veteran to another of this whole government business, I ain’t committing suicide, political suicide. I’m not doing that, so give me some information next week that I can use to come up with a position that seems reasonable to the public, even if it doesn’t seem reasonable to you.
But I’ll make the decision about how much of the hard truth. And I’m not denying your assessment of the hard truth here, but I’ll make the decision about how much of that would be useful to rallying the American people to defeat this utter criminal, dangerous Trump character, and hold on to our democracy, which is really the issue at stake.
You may call it the lesser evil, you can call it whatever you want. But compared to that guy, I’m all you got. That’s sane and rational, even if it doesn’t sound that way in this conversation all the time. All right, Ray, pack it up. But I do honor your [00:31:00] service and your experience and bring me something better next week, huh?
McGovern: Mr. President, I’ll try. Meanwhile, thanks for listening.
Scheer: You got it.
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Robert Scheer
Robert Scheer, publisher of ScheerPost and award-winning journalist and author of a dozen books, has a reputation for strong social and political writing over his nearly 60 years as a journalist. His award-winning journalism has appeared in publications nationwide—he was Vietnam correspondent and editor of Ramparts magazine, national correspondent and columnist for the Los Angeles Times—and his in-depth interviews with Jimmy Carter, Richard Nixon, Ronald Reagan, Bill Clinton, Mikhail Gorbachev and others made headlines. He co-hosted KCRW’s political program Left, Right and Center and now hosts Scheer Intelligence, a KCRW podcast with people who discuss the day’s most important issues.
Ray McGovern
Ray McGovern works with Tell the Word, a publishing arm of the ecumenical Church of the Saviour in inner-city Washington. His 27 years as a C.I.A. analyst included leading the Soviet Foreign Policy Branch and conducting the morning briefings of the President’s Daily Brief. In retirement he co-founded Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS).