By Ray McGovern and Robert Scheer / Original to ScheerPost
In this week’s episode of “Playing President,” Ray McGovern, 27-year CIA veteran and briefer of five presidents, continues to make sense of the world to “President” Scheer, who prepared for this role through his decades as a journalist, including in-depth interviews with five presidents from Nixon to Clinton. In the universe of “Playing President,” however, Scheer is not a journalist, but instead plays the President of the United States attempting to navigate the geopolitical landscape of governance and media with the help of his trusty daily briefer from the CIA, Ray McGovern.
This week, McGovern briefs the President on the worsening humanitarian crisis in Gaza, the recent bombing in Golan Heights and how the President might salvage his dwindling legacy.
Transcript
White House Intern: 00:00 Mr. President, Ray McGovern is here to brief you.
POTUS: 00:03 Oh, boy. More bad news. What’s up here?
McGovern: 00:07 Good morning. Mr. President, glad to be here. I thought I’d start with with the situation in Gaza, since we have a fresh report from the representative, the UN representative for Gaza, she just gave an interview from Jordan. She’s been in Gaza for the last couple of weeks. And I don’t want to paraphrase what she said. She said that the situation there remains absolutely catastrophic. Her words.
She said that the Palestinian civilians there were enduring, quote, “Horrendous…” well, she said, “A horrendous maelstrom of human misery.” Now she, she is the senior representative for Gaza, and she was speaking to journalists from… in the UN in New York. She was, as they say, speaking from from Jordan. Now, just to give you an idea of what people are beginning to understand, I wanted to tell you that what I mentioned last week about polio, that’s a real concern now because of the contaminated water and the exposed sewage and all that. But not only that, we have 100k- 100,000 cases of diarrhea.
We’ve got all kinds of jaundice and and it’s looking pretty bleak. I want to read first from something here, so again, I don’t misquote anybody. Polio was not endemic to Gaza, and it was banished from Gaza two decades ago. There are the infectious diseases as I mentioned. Now, with few and limited exceptions, Israel is preventing, preventing the entry of fuel, vaccines, medical supplies and potable water to the Gaza Strip. Now the point is, Mr. President, the world knows that this is intentional. Okay?
It’s not as accidental. It’s intentional, because we have people like the former head of the National Security Council in Israel, a fellow named General Eiland. And he said, and I quote, “Severe epidemics in the southern Gaza strip will bring victory closer and will reduce the number of IDF casualties.” Well, how do you do that? Well, you do that by limiting the entree of medical supplies and, more particularly, of food. Now the UN has given, given some information.
They gave a made a graphic out of it, and I’ve asked my assistant there, or your assistant, to to put it up having to do with the deliveries that have been let in by Israel, let into Gaza. Could you put that up Max? This, again, is from from the UN now, it’s a busy graph. I’m not going to explain it all, but you see the title there. This is what genocide by starvation looks like. And we have in that rectangular box at the bottom, circled in red…
POTUS: 03:25 What do you mean genocide? What do you what’s going on here? Ray the CIA thinks there’s genocide there, or something.
McGovern: 03:33 Well, actually, that’s what the…
POTUS: 03:36 That’s what FDR had polio, he had polio.
McGovern: 03:39 Yeah.
POTUS: 03:39 Still became president a great country that we got here, yeah…
McGovern: 03:44 Of course it is, yeah.
POTUS: 03:45 Polio was eradicated. What’s this?
McGovern: 03:49 Well, polio was coming back because of the sanitary conditions and the exposed sewage and that kind of thing. But this is in heading–
POTUS: 03:57 In Gaza?
McGovern: 03:58 In Gaza right. Now, it was eliminated two decades ago, with the help of two doctors from Stanford, and they realized that, given the conditions in Gaza, even then, you needed double, it’s very simple, you need to double the amount of vaccination to prevent it. And that was done later, curiously enough, when there’s an epidemic in in Israel with polio- was coming back, they use what they call the the “Gaza formula,” double dose, and it eliminated it.
So it was eliminated. Now it’s coming back. Now, what we’re saying here is this is a UN graph, okay? And it shows these bar graphs here. It shows the amount- the number of trucks that are let in every day. And up at the top, you could see that it used to be 500 trucks a day. In February of this year was 91, in May, it was 94. In what July 1, part of July, 86 now it’s 42. Almost no trucks getting in.
And that label there when it talks about genocide, well, starvation is part of genocide, and this is not only food, but medical supplies that are being let in there. So so when we talk about this, we need to understand that that’s why the International Criminal Court is about to indict Netanyahu and Gallant. Gallant being the defense minister, and here’s a quote from him, the very first week of the of the Israeli response to the October 7 attack. He says, “We are imposing a complete siege on Gaza.” As- yeah, we are imposing, yeah. “There will be no electricity, no food, no water, no fuel. Everything will be closed.” End quote.
Well, that’s the definition of genocide. Now the big thing here, I think I may have mentioned this last week, but the British used to have a kind of a challenge here. The British used to say, “Well, wait a second. Now, let’s take a look at this charge of genocide.” No longer are they challenging it. They’re saying, “Let it go, let it go through.” Now that’s Gallant there in that picture, saying “That we want to complete siege, including water, electricity, medical supplies, food.” Okay? That’s the definition of using hunger and a lack of medical care as genocide. Now, as you know, as I hope you know, Mr. President…
POTUS: 06:42 So Ray Ray, Ray Ray, stop it. This is like some nightmare here. You know, did you listen to this Netanyahu, when he was in Congress? You know what’s going on? You see the Republicans giving him, what? 75 standing ovations and you’re talking to me about polio? Netanyahu told him there’s all this food. Everything goes in there, and there’s not a problem. And they’re all cheering every single thing he’s saying, and you’re telling me that that’s not the case? And what they’ve all got polio and the UN? What’s going on here? It’s like I’m living in different universes.
McGovern: 07:17 Well, there are two different universes. Mr. President, I’m sorry to tell you. I know that you’ve been told various things by Netanyahu. I’m not quite sure he mentioned how Israelis are blocking the delivery of food and medical supplies. I’m wondering if you raised it with him, because you have asked him several times in the past to stop that, in other words, to open up the gates.
And there are about four or five that could be opened up and alleviate this misery, but they’re not being opened up. And so, of course, Netanyahu didn’t mention any of this during his speech, nor with his conversations with Congress people and Senators. So I thought that you should know it, because, as you know, our job is to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth, and that’s the truth.
That’s why the British even- and I have to say that I’m quite amazed that the British are going a little wobbly on this thing now. They withdrew their petition to the International Criminal Court to delay the indictments of Netanyahu and Defense Minister Gallant, and they’re looking at how this thing started and whether or not they should continue to give military aid to Israel. So this is big. This is the change in government, and we’re all surprised that they might change their policy. But when Britain goes this way, what’s going to happen to the rest of the NATO allies.
POTUS: 08:43 Well, let me ask you, Ray cause, so you know, right now, it is a lot of pressure. Israel wants to go full out with Lebanon and, you know, Hezbollah and all that stuff and everything. And… I can’t think, where, I don’t know what we’re doing now, but I thought we…. He doesn’t listen to us. He doesn’t listen to us. And I told him, I mean, I’ve been a supporter forever. I’m a Zionist. I’m writing them, you know. I told him that, you know. But he doesn’t care.
He doesn’t care. He’s got Congress wrapped around his finger, and the House and everything… And so we’re really, you know, polio, okay? But what about full blown war with Lebanon? And where is he going after Iran? He wants me to bomb Iran, right? He wants me to take him out once and for all. He says we didn’t do it, and it’s going to be a big issue. Because what’s Trump saying? He says he wants to, it’s got to be and fast. Well, it’s nowhere fast, except you blow everybody up and blow things up and, you know, and you get deeper into war, right?
McGovern: 09:44 That’s exactly right.
POTUS: 09:45 I don’t know what, you know. This is not what I thought was going to happen, you know. I thought Hamas would be finished in a couple of weeks, you know. And, okay, Israel would be secure… And what’s happening here? It’s just the worst nightmare. This is worse than Vietnam or anything. It’s just, fortunately, we don’t have troops there yet. But this is where… You know, I keep seeing people as kind about my legacy, but this thing genocide and horror and everything else. What happened to LBJ? LBJ had some domestic success.
They allied, right? And then he got hung with Vietnam, and then he’s remembered as a disgraced president. Is that what they’re locking me into here? And then what’s Kamala gonna do Kamala? What’s she gonna do about it? Well, she got a win in Michigan. They got a lot of Arabs there. What’s she going to do then Trump’s going to beat her up and what’s he going to make mincemeat at her?
McGovern: 10:51 Mr. President…
POTUS: 10:52 CIA, it’s not your problem. You live in this fairytale world where your spooks — the half of you on the other side of that turnstile — they go make all this mischief and blow things up all around the world, and you so called analysts, you got to make sense of it, right? And then what do you give me? You give me the reasonable part. Before for all I know you guys are behind Hezbollah shooting all this stuff up, right? Maybe you’re even locked into what Netanyahu is doing I don’t know.
McGovern: 11:21 Well, I give you, I give you the point, Mr. President, that sometimes the right hand doesn’t know what the left hand is doing, but our job is to tell you what’s going to happen. To draw a direct analogy, for example, to the Vietnam experience that LBJ faced. Now, as we’ve said before. Hats off to what he was able to achieve domestically. He was ruined by being lied to by the same people who’ve been lying to you.
Now, just a little personal aside, the way you get out of this, Mr. President, would be to fire all the generals that you have, so there are over 500 of them. Let the colonels take over. They have a little battle experience. They won’t tell you that Putin has already lost in Ukraine, as they told you in July of last year. They won’t tell you that the Russians are running out of ammunition and have no indigenous capability to produce it, as they told you a year and a half, okay, a year and a half ago.
POTUS: 12:23 I know Israel’s not out of ammunition, because we’re giving it to them.
McGovern: 12:28 That’s exactly right.
POTUS: 12:29 How much more I got to do? And everybody now saying, “Well, you shouldn’t have given them the 2000 pound things that, you know, and that kills civilians,” but, you know, that’s what it’s all about, right? And then, I mean, yeah, the LBJ thing that’s on my mind because, you know, when, before I got betrayed into having to resign when I- there’s nothing wrong. You could tell there’s nothing wrong with my grasp of these things and running the world and everything.
But they, you know, they chicken out now, okay? And he’s going to eat her for mincemeat because, you know, I mean, she’s, what does she know about foreign policy? And she wants to have it both ways. Her husband’s telling everybody, Oh no, she’s a Zionist and loves Israel, not more than I do, for God’s sake. But then, you know, they get involved with Lebanon, and then you go after Iran. That’s what, you know, Netanyahu wanted last time. Remember, he attacked Obama. He attacked them.
Yeah, you know, making, trying to make peace with Iran. He went after him in what, 2015, or something. See, I can remember all this stuff. I don’t know why they say I can’t remember! Why do they say I can’t remember? I mean, you- they don’t want to remember. You don’t want to remember, right? Everybody said, yeah, there’s weapons in Iran. There’s weapons in Iraq. We got to do it. They lied to… they lied to everybody. They lied to Bush. They’re lying to me now and then, where do I go? And it’s not true. I won’t be remembered for the great domestic programs because the war. Look how much debt we’re going to roll up with the foreign policy. Everything’s going nuts together with China and everything.
What’s happening here? Everybody forgets, you know, China bailed out Trump, because in that pandemic, they were supplying all the stuff, you know! All the toilet paper and everything, you know, everything everybody needed from Amazon was coming from Red China. No, you know what that’s what saved him. You know, saved us in the pandemic. Now wh-what? People want me to go to war with China, Russia, or I guess we’re already went to war and everything. The wartime presidents are not well regarded. They they don’t have a legacy. The legacy sucks.
McGovern: 14:37 Let me suggest that, Mister President, as I think I said last time, you have the ability to affect what happens in the Middle East. Let’s do that one first. If you make clear that you don’t want a regional war in the Middle East, and because of that, you will not support Israel taking on Hezbollah in Lebanon. If you make that clear in a public announcement, you have a natural ally, and that ally is called the IDF, Israeli Defense Forces, the army. They don’t want to go against Hezbollah.
They already took a bloody nose from a Hamas, for God’s sake. So they don’t want to do that if they’re able to say to Netanyahu, “Look, what happens when we get in more trouble against Hezbollah. What can you do? Oh, the Americans will come in. Wait a second. Now, the President has already said, ‘the Americans are not coming in.’ We’re not going against Hezbollah.” You have the opportunity to do that. Apparently, you didn’t do that when Netanyahu is here, it’s not too late.
It may be too late next week, but it’s not too late. As for Ukraine, your legacy will really be protected if you finally give the Ukrainians the go ahead to negotiate the best deal they can right now before they have to give up the whole schmear. That’s possible, too, with respect to the Far East. Now that is a real problem, Mr. President, your your inept advisers, Blinken and Sullivan told you three years ago that the Russians and the Chinese were at each other’s throats. They were- the word you used was squeezed. Remember you told Putin that Russia was being squeezed by China. Now we could have told you that it wasn’t a squeeze. It was a friendly, friendly embrace. And they’re together to the point where they ran joint exercises with very heavy bombers right up against Alaska.
Not into their territorial… not into- not so close that they caused that an international problem. That’s the first time they’ve done that ever, okay? Now they’re also doing things in the Baltic. They had a big Navy Day celebration just yesterday, on Sunday, guess who participated? Two Chinese warships, one Indian warship, another worship from Algeria. And there were 30 representatives of other countries invited and came. It was a big celebration. And let me mention one thing about what Putin said during that celebration.
He said, “Look, we know that the Americans and the Germans have planned to put long range” — get that now — “long range missiles in Germany, starting in 2026.” Okay? “We will have to mirror image that” — his word — “We’ll have to put in our own missiles, but they will not be long range missiles. They will be medium and short range missiles.” Now, what’s my point here? What Putin is trying to say to the Germans is, “By God, you got, you got hat again.” You know, look, the Americans don’t need long range missiles in Germany, and you’re going to be a target for whatever they put in there, a target that the Russians will hit first.
The Americans don’t want any part. They have strategic they have strategic balance here. They have defenses that the that Russia won’t test. But if you put those missiles in there says, Putin. You know, we’ll put medium and intermediate and lesser range missiles, and you know, they’re not going to hit the Americans. They’re going to hit you. So what he’s trying to say is, “Look, don’t be, don’t be taken in by this American initiative to put these very dangerous missiles in your country.”
And when Scholz, this Chancellor, was asked why he did this, he forgot the script, you know. And what he said was, “Well the Americans said they wanted to do it, and we agreed.” Well, that’s the way that’s gone since the war. In a way, Hungary, Slovakia, France, too a little bit, other people, even in the UK, are now showing a little bit of more discrimination here as how closely they follow the US. You should take advantage of the leeway you have in these next six months to make some initiatives to end wars in Europe and prevent wider wars in Middle East and against China.
POTUS: 19:22 Yeah, you know What don’t you understand about being a lame duck? What don’t you understand? You tell me I should do this or that. Look at the situation I’m in now. I’ve been abandoned by my own party, they say I’m not there. I’m not clear. I’m clear. I’m clear that, yeah, we don’t we don’t want this. I’m clear. That’s not going well, that’s stupid. You know, they sometimes talk to me like I’m stupid, or, you know, you’re not a young guy yourself, you know? But, I mean, I’ve been there before. I saw what happened to LBJ. They always say you’re gonna win these wars, and then it always gets at this exit strategy. There’s no exit strategy, exit strategies. I have to exit now.
I had a good thing going. I was running a good administration, taking care of people, and then I get involved in this, you know, all this stuff. I mean, who the hell ever thought Israel would explode on my watch? I thought that Russia thing Putin backed down and that would be over no time, you know. And your Europeans, you know, would then they kept pushing more. You got to expand NATO. And you got to do this. You got to do that, you know, and I don’t know. But do you… you know, this lame duck, what am I supposed to do? I do something. What am I doing? Undermining Kamala, you know? What am I doing?
I’m making it possible that’ll be, I’ll be a sore loser. Are you kidding me? I just go now and try to tell Netanyahu you can’t protect your people against Hezbollah and Iran. Iran and everything. And you know, I don’t, I don’t see, uh, Obama speaking up about it. It was whole, this whole thing to negotiate with Obama. Now, Netanyahu is the guy who came in and undermined him when he was the sitting president, came there and told the Congress, you know, he can’t do business with Iran. And you think he’s not going to find ways to make sure Trump’s president because he could do business with Trump, Netanyahu can.
McGovern: 21:27 Well Mr. President, Mr. President, you’re still president, and…
POTUS: 21:34 Tell that to the media! I’m still president. They’re looking if I, if I can, they say, you know, if he doesn’t stumble, I can read a speech from a teleprompter. They- “Oh, yeah, he’s pretty good.” Come on, the lowered expectations. I try to give a speech on foreign policy now explain that we’re abandoning Netanyahu, and we don’t want him to go get in a fight with Hezbollah. Then he’s going to say, wait a minute, Who’s Who’s that? Is that Kamala talking? Or is that Biden talking? Does he know what he’s talking about?
He, you know him. He’s a brutal guy that Netanyahu and Putin’s no picnic. I mean, they just pick you apart. And Zelensky, he’ll start attacking me. They’ll all attack me. You know, I saw what happened LBJ. That guy was riding high the best- maybe. I don’t know how they could compare me to LBJ. I mean, he got a hell of a lot more done than I ever could. I mean, that’s just just between us. I mean, Jesus that, you know LBJ, but you know Vietnam, man, he was finished. You know, you hardly hear him.
McGovern: 22:38 He was, he was lied to by the generals, Mr. President. Just the way you have been. Let me suggest something now,
POTUS: 22:48 Ray wrap it up. I know, I know the situation I’m in, but you know you’re you’re telling me that here is Hezbollah and Iran and everything, and Netanyahu. That speech he gave, what… he kicked me in, you know, the privates there. I mean, what kind of speech was that? You know, says “Yeah nice thing about me,” but he basically said, you know, that you got to follow them.
You got- what is this now? I mean, we used to talk about being for the whole world, and now what? Were- it’s US and Israel, you know? And now we’re trying to get what Japan and Vietnam, you figure it all out, but, but if your advice to me is that I gotta, you know, pronounce defeat now or something, or I can’t do that.
McGovern: 23:36 It’s not defeat, Mr. President, it’s statesmanship. All you need to do is make clear that US forces will not support Israel if it widens the war against Hezbollah. And it would be helpful if you withdrew some US forces from the area. That would give the Israelis pause, and it might convince Netanyahu that over the next six months at least, you mean it!
And the army, as I said, would be in your camp, the Israeli army would breathe a sigh of relief, that, “Oh my god, now let’s finish his job against Hamas. We don’t have to have a two front war.” One other thing, Mr. President, in a personal kind of thing, it’s not just your image, but there is personal liability here. As you probably know, if these IC- International Criminal Court indictments go through — as I expect they will in the next few weeks — against Netanyahu himself and Gallant his defense minister.
Well, there’s the question of accomplice, accomplices and people who made it possible and people who didn’t shut off the military aid that made it possible and enabled the genocide. So you don’t want to be in that position.
What you need to do, and seems to me is during the time you have left, speak out, saying, “Look, we’re going to stop enabling this genocide. We don’t like starvation. We don’t like people dying of of infectious diseases. We’re going to stop giving arms aid to Israel.” That would do it in a moment. And it would say to the Israeli army, “Oh, God, finally, Netanyahu is being reigned in by a president.” Yeah, only six more months. Six more months is a long time. And if you’re worried about your legacy, I think that would protect your legacy.
POTUS: 25:28 Yeah and then what? You know what? I mean, this is… Look, okay, you know, I’ve been around a long time, you know, I remember poor Jack Kennedy, you know, whenever he got involved with Yemen, Yemen was supposed to save freedom, and there in Vietnam and everything. And the next thing you know that you guys at the CIA killed him!
Running around the sewers and Saigon, he was trying to protect himself, and the guy got and then so Kennedy was no longer… and God knows, probably had a lot to do with his getting assassinated. And then you had that, that Bay of Pigs thing that he got involved with. So Kennedy, his whole reputation got screwed up there. And you know, oh yeah, the CIA will just go in there and knock out Castro. What- you know, the communists they still got.
There’s communist Vietnam, communist in China communists in Cuba. And you guys all said, “No, they’re just paper tigers we’ll get rid of them.” And then it’s always the same thing with the Iraq war and everything. You know, no one was looking… Hamas! For God’s sake, I remember Netanyahu and these guys, they were giving them money! They were letting the money come in there, right from, you know, in the cutter and everywhere. And, you know, they said, “Oh no, he’s better than the PLO!” You know, we can’t have…
McGovern: 26:41 That’s right, yeah,
POTUS: 26:44 Hamas was supposed to- they never supposed to, you know, do this stuff. They’re supposed to be tame. They got their little fiefdom there, and Gaza, they were supposed to, then we use them to undermine the PLO. And Right? That all made sense. Now everybody says, “Hey, you support- allowed these terrorists to get in.” And meanwhile, Trump he’s sitting there, that fat ass son of a bitch, you know. He’s sitting there, and it’s all working out for him. And you know, his allies, Netanyahu he comes in there, and what’s poor Kamala gonna do?
She, you know, she’s gotta, gotta worry. You got a lot of Arabs from people like that voting up there in Michigan and everything. So she’s got to say something about that yet, a lot of people in Gaza are getting killed. It’s tragic and everything, but she’s got to come on tough too. And got to remind you, Ray, I’m a lame duck now. I’m a lame, lame, lame, lame, I’m a lame duck.
And I should never have listened to those people. I should be out there defending myself. I should be taking on Trump. I should have never listened to my advisors. Yeah, they always give you crummy advice and everything. I was- I didn’t even I didn’t believe in this stuff! I said we should have gone into Iraq against Saddam Hussein. I had some doubts and everything, but now I’m holding a bag of shit here. I can’t believe it, and that’s what lame duck means. I’m just here. I got a smile. And, yeah, thanks, you know, sure, and my legacy is kaput, see you next time.
See ya, Ray, I had enough. I gotta go get some sleep. They tell me I’m not supposed to do anything. Here I am at night, babbling away with you, and that’s… So Ray. Ray the last thing, yeah, this thing about holding, if Netanyahu goes after Hezbollah, that’s what’s got to do, because he killed all the Druze. They’re terrible. And up there in the Golan Heights, which, how the hell did they get the Golan Heights? Was supposed to be Syria, but then they… anyway. But what do we talk about here? This could be worse than even the Ukraine, right? I mean, this could be really one of the dumber things. What happens there? I mean, or do they just knock out Hezbollah? What happens?
McGovern: 28:58 Mr. President, it’s not altogether clear, but it seems pretty certain that this was not a deliberate Hezbollah attack on kids playing soccer. In other words, it was either an errant missile that was headed toward Mount Hermon or some of the outposts that the Israelis have in that area, which I would remind you is occupied area.
In other words, it belongs to Syria… And Trump, in his wisdom, gave it back to Israel, saying “Israel annexed it in ’67 they can have it.” Now It’s part of Israel. So these Druze kids were killed. Now, were they killed intentionally by Hezbollah? No, they weren’t. Was it an errand missile? Possible. Was it a Israeli missile trying to intercept it? That too is possible, and there are forensics being done now with respect to the to the cavity in the ground that can reveal what kind of missile was, and so forth.
The major thing, the takeaway here, Mr. President, is that Netanyahu said they’re going to be prompt and they’re going to be severe this reaction. So they could use it as a pretext to go against Hezbollah. They will not go against Hezbollah unless they think you will support them. And that’s the whole point of what I’m saying last week and this week, you have the… you have the this, the wherewithal here, and you have the freedom! You’re not running again, for God’s sake! So you have the freedom, unaccustomed freedom, to go against the grain and say, “Look, Mr. Netanyahu, we don’t like the genocide and we also don’t want a wider war. Now tell, tell your army not to do that.”
And the army, I think, will be breathing the sigh of relief. Saying now, “Phewf okay. We don’t have to go on a two front war with a debilitated army, which is what has resulted from our fight with Hamas.” Just to suggest that, Mr. President, but that’s the current that’s the main thing right now that you could do. And they say, I don’t believe that you are powerless in the next six months. Matter of fact, I think you have unaccustomed freedom to do the kinds of things that should be done and that will help your legacy about which you have expressed concern.
POTUS: 31:26 Yeah. Ray, so let me ask you a last question. You know, FDR, he was pretty weak at the end of the war. And people, the people, media, they never even talked about him having polio, right? Had to be carried up to the ship when they had the meetings, and so forth at Stewart and all that stuff, you know. And you know, I’m not going to show any sympathy for Trump or anything, but you know, you can see I’m, I’m really clear thinking, right?
You could see this as a bum rap, you know, well, how smart were the rest of them? I mean, what did George Bush ever know about anything? You know, even with daddy’s help, he had trouble there in college. What ended up? Who’s really smart. You’ve seen a lot of these people in these positions, they pretend to be smart and everything, they always end up screwing up, you know, because who the hell can be Caesar, right? I’ve been thinking about it a lot.
We got an empire, but we don’t have a Caesar, you know? I mean, they didn’t train us for this. We’re not good at that, and we weren’t supposed to do it. We gotta always hide it. So, you know, conquer the world, and get scorned… got in the way. Now you got this guy, Trump, who claims he’s going to be Caesar. Well he’s almost as old as I am, and he, you know, he’s not in great shape. Look at his weight and everything. And what he’s going to run the whole world? You know, and how do you run it? And all these other people aren’t buying it. They don’t want it. They fight us on everything. Anyway. You ought to think about that, you know. And you guys at the CIA, you can’t.
You believe that you can control all this stuff. And they all want to be players. We’re going to just give you one Saudi Arabia. For God’s sake. We did everything for them, and even forgive them. You know, to kill this guy in the Washington Post they kill him, they dismembered, it’s disgusting. In the embassy, or what have you, they asked him to do one thing they could have stopped Putin in his tracks. Just lower the price of oil, just cut away back. You know, he wouldn’t do that. Instead, he goes the other way. Take India. They’re buying their oil from Russia, right? They’re buying as much as China is. So what do you got going here? Who’s going to be Caesar? How you control the world? And you keep saying, well, democracy, democracy, but you know, people aren’t buying it.
They, you know, they say, “No, you got the dollar. You you control things, you come out on top. We know it.” I understand, you know, if I put on my Scranton hack, I get it. You know, who’s doing the screwing, who’s getting screwed? You know that I got that. Most of the world looks like we, you know, yeah, democracy, but well, you know, we have to come out on top and the economics and everything. You know, it’s, you know, how do I keep these Chinese cars out of here? You know, I have to keep them out because they make them half the price they could sell them. And I can’t even get General Motors to make a decent car, to even stop that boat and everything. So I don’t know Ray, it’s like, yeah, if we had a Caesar, kind of an empire. But maybe that’s….
McGovern: 34:51 Can I finish on a somewhat higher note, Mr. President? I’m quoting a Caesar. “I have not come to praise Caesar, I’ve come to bury him.” Now, the empire has pretty much been buried. Your advisors don’t appreciate that. I think that Blinken and Sullivan are living decades behind where we are now. We used to be an empire after World War Two, or even more, an empire after the Soviet Union imploded. We’re not that anymore, and the behavior of Saudi Arabia and India are earmarks, are symptoms of our loss of power.
So what I would suggest is that we decide to not think we’re- that we’re exceptional anymore or that we should rule the world, that we dovetail, and we talk to people in BRICS and elsewhere. We get the Ukrainians doing sensible negotiations. We stop a regional war in the Middle East. We can still do that, and we can exercise appropriate caution when it comes to the nexus between Russia and China and not get involved in a two front or even a three front war. We don’t have that kind of empire anymore. I hope you realize that.
POTUS: 36:16 Yeah, I realize that. But you know, you think Trump realizes that?
POTUS: 36:20 You know what he’s going to do? He thinks these nuclear weapons, they’re firecrackers, you know? You set a couple off, people get scared, and they do what you tell them to do. And he says, “I’ll fix that, and I’ll fix that. You come back and they’ll fix that.” You know? He saw he couldn’t fix the pandemic. He couldn’t fix the- called it the China virus.
That didn’t stop it, you know. And a lot of people died, you know, he got out. He got out clean there by, you know, sounding like he knows what he’s doing. But, you know, the Chinese bailed him out. They kept our economy going. They sent all this stuff to Amazon. People could still buy what they wanted. And then, you know, what he did? He pulled the Roosevelt, he increased that unemployment thing by what, three times or four times, you know. So people we’re making as much being unemployed as they were making when they were working.
So, you know, he bankrupted the country, but he threw a lot of money at it. But, you know, the fact is, this guy’s dangerous, isn’t he? I mean, he’s really dangerous because he’s going to say, “Wait a minute, you know, my way or the highway, you know, well, let’s blow up some city. I’ll get their attention.” And he doesn’t understand these weapons, they go off right away when one goes off. Once something comes from Russia that blows up something elsewhere, you know, whether you say Germany or somebody blows up something here, it’s all out. It’s all over. It’s cockroach time, right?
McGovern: 36:20 No.
McGovern: 37:47 That’s true.
POTUS: 37:49 You know, that’s cockroach time. It’s not some game that goddamn Oppenheimer, you know, they make a movie about, he seems so smart, and he has all the girlfriends and everything. But what the hell makes a weapon. You can’t use that goddamn thing for anything, but to end everything. Because, you know, and that’s what the Russians, they kept those damn weapons. I thought, you know, Gorbachev and Reagan, then they were gonna get rid of them. But they didn’t get rid of them. They got them. And you they need that many. And then you got everybody else that got them. Israel! Don’t. They got about 200 of these things?
McGovern: 38:20 That’s the estimate. Well, the estimate is between 90 and 300
POTUS: 38:27 Yeah, what are they going to do with them, you know? And I mean, what they’re going to blow up? They can’t blow up Gaza with a nuclear weapon. What are they going to do? So, you know, I think about these big questions sometimes. And I think what, you know, Yeah, we gotta… I can’t do anything to hurt Kamala, you know. I mean, she’s got, and she gonna have a hard time, because that guy, Trump, you know, he, you know, I should have stayed there.
I could have beaten him, but, you know, nobody believes that. You know, so what the hell? All right, but it’s a big question, because he’s, he’s not going… he can’t get his way with the negotiator, he can blow up somebody! That’s, you know, that’s why they build these weapons. He’s going to say, “We put a lot of money into them, oh, let’s, you know, take out Moscow or something. You know, that’ll show ’em.”
McGovern: 39:16 That’s the fear… That’s the fear that the Russians have. The Russians have made a big deal out of how they prefer predictability on the part of an American president. That’s quite understandable, isn’t it? Well, they have said in the past that the Trump is completely unpredictable. I believe they believe that and many other people believe that, okay? So now’s the time, it seems to me to use this, well, this immunity that you have since you’re not running again, to encourage a peaceful solution to Ukraine before, before it goes nuclear. Because the Russians are winning. They’re advancing every week. They’re not trying to gain territory, although they are, they’re trying to destroy the Ukrainian army, which they’re doing in spades.
So come the next six, six weeks to the point where your advisors are going to say, “We’ve lost in Ukraine, we’re going to lose the election, and, my God, we’re all liable to the to the wiles of Donald Trump, and maybe we ought to use a little nuke. How’s that to you? That’ll show the Russians.” That’s what your advisors are going to ask you. Mark my words, and please, please be aware that that’s not going to save anything.
POTUS: 40:31 I don’t know where we are now. This is not Ngo Dinh Diem or somebody we could just push aside. You got Zelensky, and he’s now a world class leader, and, you know, admired, Hollywood and everywhere, you know. And then you got Netanyahu. Look what he did with the Congress. He just had a meeting about it… So yeah, the Democrats, a lot of them, were there. But you know, they also have to face their opponents. And know what the Republicans did? They’re totally, they’re totally out of their minds. They don’t know anything. They’re stupid people. They actually, you know, believe it’s, you know, divine interventions, God saved their ass, or something.
You know, you know what the end of times, or some shit like that. And that’s why, you know. And so it’ll all come out rosy, and you could go crazy here, and you got, you know, you don’t have adults watching the store. I remember, I used to hate that Richard Nixon, you know, but god damn it, he understood a lot about foreign policy. He learned from Eisenhower whatever he knew was a real world out there. And then, after he was out of office, you know, I don’t know. I don’t know if you should jail an ex president. You know that, because he could jail everybody, probably. B
ut you know, he wrote some books and he speak, you know. And he was kind of a peacenik at the end there, you know. And, and he did, you know, and that war in Vietnam, you know. And, but, you know, you can’t manage this world in a way they think. And this guy, Trump, he scares the hell out of me, right? He just does. And, you know, and you got a lot of nutty cases over there in the CIA and everybody on the on the other side, not your analyst-commie side, but on the other side, you know.
Bring it on. Bring it on. So I tell you, I’m not going to be here that much longer, but I worry about it. I worried about it all. And, you know, frankly, I mean, I do think, if she’s got a better chance, more power to her, Kamala, you know. I think he’s going to eat her for lunch. But, you know, if she’s got a better chance, so maybe it’s okay to kick me out here. I don’t know, but they should have done in a better way. What the hell? You know, miss a few words or get something wrong and now… Alright, it’s enough. Let’s wrap it up there, and if we’re both still alive, we’re talking next, next week, or something, whatever. Have to see. Okay, take it.
McGovern: 42:58 Thank you, Mr- Thank you, Mr. President.
POTUS: 43:02 Yeah, and I’m clear, right? You know?
McGovern: 43:07 Well, I’ve always had interactions with you that have been thoroughly professional, Mr. President, and anybody asked me about I would tell them.
POTUS: 43:18 Asshole.. okay, take care.
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Ray McGovern
Ray McGovern works with Tell the Word, a publishing arm of the ecumenical Church of the Saviour in inner-city Washington. His 27 years as a C.I.A. analyst included leading the Soviet Foreign Policy Branch and conducting the morning briefings of the President’s Daily Brief. In retirement he co-founded Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS).
Robert Scheer
Robert Scheer, publisher of ScheerPost and award-winning journalist and author of a dozen books, has a reputation for strong social and political writing over his nearly 60 years as a journalist. His award-winning journalism has appeared in publications nationwide—he was Vietnam correspondent and editor of Ramparts magazine, national correspondent and columnist for the Los Angeles Times—and his in-depth interviews with Jimmy Carter, Richard Nixon, Ronald Reagan, Bill Clinton, Mikhail Gorbachev and others made headlines. He co-hosted KCRW’s political program Left, Right and Center and now hosts Scheer Intelligence, an independent ScheerPost podcast with people who discuss the day’s most important issues.
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