By Mansa Musa / The Real News Network
Regarded by many as a form of torture, abolishing solitary confinement has become a goal for many activists for prison reform and abolition. In Washington, DC, the End Solitary Confinement 2023 bill would seek to end the practice in District facilities by requiring incarcerated people have access to at least eight hours a day outside their cells. Herbert Robinson, co-facilitator of the Unlock the Box campaign in DC, joins Rattling the Bars to speak on his personal experiences with solitary confinement and the campaign to abolish it in DC.
Studio / Post-Production: Cameron Granadino
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TRANSCRIPT
The following is a rushed transcript and may contain errors. A proofread version will be made available as soon as possible.
Mansa Musa:
Throughout the country, efforts are being made to erase, ban, or abolish the use of solitary confinement within the prison industrial complex. Men and women, even to this day, are being held in solitary confinement for years on end. Here to talk about one initiative that’s taking place in the District of Columbia called ERASE Solitary Confinement 2023 is Herbert Robinson. Thank you Mr. Robinson for joining me.
Herbert Robinson:
All right, I appreciate that. How you doing there Mansa?
Mansa Musa:
I’m doing good. Tell our audience a little bit about yourself.
Herbert Robinson:
I’m the co-facilitator of Unlock the Box campaign here in Washington DC. I’m also a Georgetown Pivot fellow, cohort six. Right now I do advocacy work in the Washington DC area. Now one of our biggest focuses is ending solitary confinement here in DC, which most of the city considers torture.
Mansa Musa:
All right. Full disclosure, I came out of the cohort, I think it was Pivot cohort three. Dave, Ms. Moore, we came out the cohort three. Welcome bro. Look, so for the benefit of our audience, you work with DC Justice Lab, explain what DC Justice Lab is.
Herbert Robinson:
DC Justice Lab. It’s a policy and advocacy organization here in DC that’s fighting to change some of the laws. They work with returning citizens, as well as college students and anyone throughout the Washington DC area that has an idea, that has a suggestion about the policy or the laws and is willing to fight for that change. They give you the tools and the resources through their library that they have right there 12th and U Street. They also have the assistance with their policy and training courses that they offer.
Mansa Musa:
Right. I’m familiar with DC Justice Lab. I’m in the DC [inaudible 00:02:30] area. The studio where I’m at is in Baltimore, but I work for a group over there called Voices for a Second Chance. I’m familiar with DC Justice Lab. I’ve been in this space with the leadership. DC Justice Lab, like you say, I like their advocacy because, one, they’re aggressive in terms of identifying the issue and we are more so aggressive in terms of impact and policy and changing policy. Which brings me to End Solitary Confinement 2023, the legislation that’s being proposed to end solitary confinement. How is solitary confinement? What do you know about, or have you ever experienced solitary confinement first? And what is it in DC?
Herbert Robinson:
Yes, I’ve experienced solitary confinement. I actually had firsthand lived experience with it. I’ve been in a SMU program in the federal system. I’ve been in South 1 in DC Jail. I’ve been in Northeast 1 in DC Jail. Solitary confinement is 23 and one in DC Jail with solitary confinement was 71 and one.
Mansa Musa:
Yeah. 24 and none.
Herbert Robinson:
Yeah, you came out for your hour rec every three days because they spoke about it being overcrowded or short of staff and things of that nature. So yeah, I got firsthand experience with solitary confinement. Solitary confinement is torture. It’s been some torturous times spent in South 1. When you sitting on that tier listening to people yell and scream and throw feces and things of that nature. Man, that ain’t no way a man should be. That ain’t no way a human should be.
Mansa Musa:
Right. I think when I seen this report come out, End Solitary Confinement 2023, I was thinking about how this is a continuation of a national campaign and an international campaign to abolish solitary confinement because the United Nations says it is torture and it shouldn’t be used. When people think about imprisonment, that in and of itself is a dehumanization in and of itself. Solitary confinement is a different animal all together. I did four and a half years in supermax. I did countless years on segregation, which had the same characteristics as solitary confinement in that, like you say, you’re in a small confined area. You hear people that can’t handle that kind of control and confinement. You hear them just all night long screaming, yelling, banging. But then they start playing with their feces and that became a whole another animal. When y’all decided to take this up, where was you at in terms of educating people on why this is necessary?
Herbert Robinson:
So right now where we at, what we did is we formed a working group, a centering directly impacted people working group, those with lived experiences and I was one of those members of that group. We used that group to do outreach. We all filled out a survey that basically shared some of our experiences and the things we went through while we were in solitary confinement. We allowed the research team to go through it and analyze some things and help create what would help benefit us in those conditions with that bill that we are putting forth to pass. As well as doing outreach with the community, going into the community, speaking to those with lived experience, speaking to some of their family members. We ran across some children of parents that had experienced solitary confinement and just listening to them share their stories about their interactions with their mother for those years that she was incarcerated. Most females spend a lot of their time in solitary confinement, especially at DC Jail and CTF and stuff like that.
So having those experiences shared and putting a platform out there, giving people a chance to share those experiences and letting everybody know that this is an issue. So the ACLU, they work with Lake Research Partners and did a poll. This poll, it showed that at one time when people didn’t know nothing about solitary confinement or whatever, and it was just spoke to them about it being 22 to 24 hours a day and locked in the cell. You had 31 people who supported it solitary confinement. You had 62 opposed that… No, I’m sorry, I got my numbers wrong. So it was 32 supported and 55 opposed, and 13 just didn’t know where they led at either way. So now after hearing about solitary confinement and a person being held under these conditions and that these conditions doesn’t do nothing to help with rehabilitation, that these conditions, they actually hinder a person’s mental state. When you don’t have nobody to talk to, when you don’t got too many books to read, and everything is at a minimum to you, if you don’t use it, you lose it.
Mansa Musa:
Right. Not to cut you off, but in that regard, that’s the traumatic part of that process because I recall when I went to supermax, they ain’t had no library system. It’s 12 of us on the pod and they ain’t had no library system. But more importantly, when you came into the supermax, this is what you knew when you got there, the average person did five years. When you came in, the average amount of time that you was expected to do in supermax was five years. So you went in there, thinking I’m going to be in here for five years.
But then when you get there and realize what here is, then the reality, it [inaudible 00:08:56]. But one thing when I got in there was there was no library and everything was controlled in terms of books and how many books you could get, if your family could send you any books. I didn’t have no TV. I didn’t want none of that. Man, you talking about somebody starving for something to read. Man, I was just reading anything that had words on it. But let me ask you this here, in terms of give us an outline on what are y’all proposing in the End Solitary Confinement 2023, if you can?
Herbert Robinson:
Well, our biggest goal is to try to get everyone eight hours a day out of cell. We feel as though eight hours is a substantial enough time and it gives everyone a good amount of time to do any reading they need to do, any studying they need to do, any communication with their families, any hygiene they need to take care of, any actions with other humans. Solitary confinement hasn’t proved anything. Only thing solitary confinement has proved is the torture of a human to put you in a depressed state. If this is what you’re calling punishment, put me in a depressed state, a miserable state, then that ain’t right, man. That’s something that should be abolished, it’s something that should be banned. So again, so we’re trying to get everybody eight hours out the cell.
We’re trying to get those with mental health issues and that need assistance, you’re trapping them in this cell and you putting them there. If the problem isn’t solved in 48 hours, then they need to be transferred out of your institution to a facility that can help them. You feeding them medication two to three times a day and not assisting them, not giving them the treatment they need, not allow them to talk through their problems and giving them the assistance to learn how to work through their problems. These are some of the things we’re proposing to try to give people that time out they cell, trying to get people transferred to hospitals if it needs be. We do understand that when it comes to disciplinary actions and things like that, it needs to be a punishment. But you can take what you call privileges from a person. If you don’t want a person to have a certain amount of commissary or put them on commissary restriction, it’s ways where they can write letters and-
Mansa Musa:
Other than torture. Like you said, if the intent is to torture, brutalize you, break you, then yes, solitary confinement is doing all that. But if the intent is going to be for it to correct a behavior, then that’s not doing that. Talk about the aspect of it as it relates to how they’re going about putting… If you got this information, who do they primarily target for solitary confinement? Because my study come up with a certain class, certain [inaudible 00:12:07], they be navigating it and utilizing solitary confinement primarily for a torturous reason. Were you able to discern, is it certain individuals or certain class or certain type of people they primarily use for solitary, or just across the board?
Herbert Robinson:
No, I can give you my understanding of it, but DC Jail don’t actually put out the data on that to be specific. From my experience, like a lot of who’s there, are those with mental issues. Those with minor infractions. Might’ve disrespected the CO, incidents to staff, didn’t lock in on time, might’ve stolen an extra tray. Things like this, being disrespectful. These are the people that’s being targeted. Or those that has a fear of being in population, they’re being put in solitary confinement because they have a fear being put in population. They don’t want to be around certain individuals. So now you punish them because they don’t have the aggression.
Mansa Musa:
I know when I was in supermax what they did, and you maybe can address this, when I was in supermax, what they did, every year, they brought you up for evaluation to determine if you should be released from supermax. Because when you’re in supermax, like [inaudible 00:13:38], it’s indefinite. It’s not like you get 90 days for a shot, you get 30 days for a shot, 90 days for a ticket, 30 days for a ticket, 60 days for a ticket in solitary confinement. I know in supermax, they sent you there, it was indefinite. You there until they determined that they’re going to let you go. But every year they would bring you up for evaluation. From your studies, was that the case with solitary confinement as you was exposed to it? Or is that the case what’s going on in the DC Jail?
Herbert Robinson:
No, that’s not the case in DC Jail. So in DC Jail, it’s more so they use it for punitive reasons for people with disciplinary issues. But those that’s been trapped there for the most part mental health and maybe for whatever they crime was in the streets. Nah, they ain’t checking back for. But like you spoke about earlier, United Nations and the Mandela rule, which part of that rule is rule forty-four that says being confined to a cell for 22 hours a day for 14 days or more, is considered torture. Being in them conditions for 14 days, the 15th day, United Nations saying that’s torture. So the supermax is in violation of United Nations, the Mandela rule. They don’t have no care or concern about standing on the Mandela rule. They’re doing what they want to.
Mansa Musa:
I recall when I was in the pen back in the eighties when they first came up with admin seg, the concept of admin seg, which was another concept of leaving you locked down for indefinite. Prior to the cases that came out of that, they was using solitary confinement like this here towards women. They were dealing with sleep deprivation. They was taking them and putting them in cells I think in Kentucky and kept the lights on all day long. They isolated and kept them in there 24 and none. They filed and had got that reverse, which led to the admin seg. The Supreme Court went in on the admin seg, a case called Sandin versus Conner where it said that at some point in time they called it atypical and significant hardship. Said at some point in time during the course of your conservation, you expect to be in some type of arduous, treacherous, torturous environment. But in terms of where y’all at, in terms going forward, walk us through y’all proposing the bill and y’all proposing it to DC City Council. Is that where it’s at?
Herbert Robinson:
Actually right now we’re waiting on a scheduled hearing. So a Councilmember Nadeau, Brianne Nadeau, she actually partnered with us and she introduced the bill. We’ve had several other council members sign on. I want to say it’s eight all in together so far that actually signed on to partner with it. But we’ve sat down and spoke to every council member, their staff, and actually had a few council members we got to speak to one-on-one in person. But for the most part we spoke to staff members. But actually, we did get to speak to all council members in entirety. So that was a great thing. So far it seems everybody has a concern and everybody sees solitary confinement as torture and knows that it does hinder those that’s returning home from them conditions. That plays a part on society. Everybody wants to see and do what it takes to help better society, and also give those others returning home and those that stuck under them conditions a better opportunity in life. So, we’re all working together to try to figure some things out.
Mansa Musa:
We know from what’s going on in the country in general, but in the District of Columbia in particular, this history of crime mainly around our kids. To your knowledge, are they using solitary confinement because they confine the juveniles in isolation and solitary confinement type situation?
Herbert Robinson:
In DC right now? Yes. To my understanding, they are. They have their reasons. They’ll try to tell you because of over crowdedness or lack of staff. But punishment, is it? That’s what it is. It’s a punishment.
Mansa Musa:
The Supreme Court already came out and say that you can’t use the budget as a reason for continue to inflict inhumane conditions on people. You can’t use over crowdedness as a pretext for why you subject people to inhumane conditions. That’s just not a reality. That’s something that you use to get away with. Talk about y’all interaction with people now, just right now in the system. Do y’all have any connection with anybody in the system right now that’s undergoing the process or giving y’all information to keep y’all abreast of what’s going on to help with the advocacy?
Herbert Robinson:
Like I said, we passed our surveys out and a lot of our communication went through that way as far as DC Jail was through the surveys. We don’t actually have no one that we direct in our contact with communication to inside of DC Jail. In that sense, our connection is more so once they get home and through the surveys that we sent in, they all came back out. Like general surveys. You filled that out anonymously. We didn’t want to put nobody under no… We both understand what goes on inside them conditions. So, a lot of that’s anonymous. So I couldn’t have that. But what I can say, I do outreach work with More Than Our Crimes, which is another org here in DC, and they give a voice to the incarcerated individuals. They got a podcast and everything, she shares and allows them to speak on. So that’s where that bridge goes and that we get to speak to the brothers from that point of view and allow them to shift.
Mansa Musa:
You had spoke earlier about all sorts of campaign, Unlock the Box. What is that?
Herbert Robinson:
Unlock the Box. That’s the End Solitary Confinement.
Mansa Musa:
Okay. That is what it’s called?
Herbert Robinson:
Yeah. That’s the national campaign. So Unlock the box is a national campaign. That’s the End Solitary Confinement. Unlock the Box DC is our local branch of that organization.
Mansa Musa:
Okay. I track Solitary Watch and Solitary Watch is in the forefront in terms of highlighting solitary confinement, highlighting where it’s being utilized, and highlighting what advocacy is going on around the abolition of it. So that’s why I said I know it’s a national conversation. It’s a national initiative.
Herbert Robinson:
States like New Jersey, New York, Wyoming, it’s states that’s already passed legislation to end solitary confinements. It’s states like West Virginia, that’s what they do. You’re in there, in solitary confinement, after 14 days they have to release you. Then if you commit another act you can come back for 14 days. You can’t be stuck there for 30 days, 90. You can’t be stuck there for a year at a time. It’s states that’s already moved in this direction, brother, that supports ending this solitary confinement, ending this torture of these humans.
Mansa Musa:
You know what? Herb, it’s nothing more traumatized than that. We adjust to it in the system. Don’t get me wrong. You going on lock, we adjust to it, because we don’t have no way of changing it. We don’t have no way of reversing it. That’s why we make the adjustment. But in terms of the psychological aspect of it, that’s the most traumatic thing ever. Because I knew, when they told me I was going to supermax, I had that in the back of my head that I’m going to be there for five years. I didn’t know what that was, that five year was. But when I got in there and realized that if I don’t stay focused on maintaining my sanity, I’m going to be a babbling maniac when I come out there, because nothing was going on there to reinforce any type of social interaction or social skills.
Everything was magnified by being locked down. All the information that came out of that experience and out of that space was distorted because I’m frustrated. So the least little thing, I’m off the chain, the least little thing. We could be talking about basketball and you could say LeBron James is a punk, for lack of a better word, that become contentious enough for me and you wanting kill each other because of being in that environment. You know what I’m saying? It could be anything other than we talking about baloney and you saying ain’t no such thing as chicken baloney. Right after that, we ready to kill each other over that. That come out of that environment. You know what I mean?
Herbert Robinson:
Another scenario of that is how possessive we become because you locked in them conditions, everything is yours. You don’t have to share nothing. Then you get out here in society, and you might be in a work setting or something, they pick up the pen off your desk to write something down. But that’s your pen to you. You not used to nobody just picking up your pen. To someone else out here in society, bro, they looking at us like that’s a pen. You really going to feel some type of way because I touched your pen? I needed to write something down. But they don’t know the conditions you’ve been under and how it’s mentally draining.
Mansa Musa:
That’s the torture.
Herbert Robinson:
Like you say, we adapt at that time. Right. But think about the premature deaths that’s caused by those that returned home from solitary confinement and they’ve committed suicide. You got to look at the brother Kalief Browder, brother. He was locked in solitary confinement like that and went home and committed suicide.
Mansa Musa:
Yeah, I know.
Herbert Robinson:
You know what I’m saying? It’s so many of us like that brother, man, and put they self in these positions, man. When they come home from this solitary confinement and they don’t have the resources or the help, but shouldn’t have never been in them conditions in the first place, man. It’s torture, man. The premature deaths of those that come home, man, and has to face these consequences of society. Like you say, the examples we just gave, how the arguments can just pop up out of nowhere. Then the spur of the moment, you don’t know what it can lead to.
Mansa Musa:
Yeah, because the guy told me-
Herbert Robinson:
But that’s because we lack the social and emotional intelligence to communicate, to be able to bond and work together in society. We don’t have it because we’ve been trapped inside the boxes for so long.
Mansa Musa:
God told me that when I went to supermax, he said, man, when you leave out here… He had been there a couple of times. You ain’t going to be the same. When I got out when and I was in one prison and the movement was more controlled so it wasn’t a lot of activity around you. They moved me from there to another jail. The other jail, the place they moved me, it was like everything was moving rapidly around you. Everybody knew me in the spot. I’m standing still. People that hadn’t seen me for a long time, they coming up to me saying stuff. I got a friend with me, I’m like, “Man, what the…” He said, “Man, look. Come on, let’s go out in the yard.” Because I was stuck.
Herbert Robinson:
You was trying to get back to your unit.
Mansa Musa:
Yeah, really. I was stuck.
Herbert Robinson:
You ain’t up here around them people. You ain’t adjusted yet.
Mansa Musa:
You got the last word on this. What you want our audience to know going forward on what the DC Justice Lab is doing, and how y’all want people to support this effort, this nationwide effort to ban the box?
Herbert Robinson:
For one, the Unlock the Box campaign, it’s the ERASE bit. You go on to the ERASE hearing. There’s a bit, if you go on and do it, you can sign up and get your council members, especially those from here in Washington DC, you get your council members to help you with the hearing. Send them the email and tell them that you support End Solitary Confinement and we need Councilmember Pinto, who is the chair of the judiciary committee, we need her to schedule a hearing for us.
Mansa Musa:
Okay.
Herbert Robinson:
We get a hearing scheduled, man, and get those that has the experience, the lived experience, or family members with the experience or can know the impact of it. Especially those that might have worked over the jail or have family members that’s been over the jail and understand what’s going on and the significance that solitary confinement plays in hindering us. We need their support. We need them to step up and share.
Mansa Musa:
Okay, there you have it. Rattling The Bars, the real news. Thank you brother Herbert. We want people to be mindful of this, that we’re talking about humanity. We’re not talking about people living comfortable. If you have this notion that if you in prison that you should be subjected to certain things, no, you shouldn’t be subjected to being tortured. You shouldn’t be subjected to inhumanity. You shouldn’t be subjected to a system where they put you in a box and leave you there 24 and none, or let you out every three days for rec. No, you shouldn’t be in there. That’s not what penology is about. It says crime and punishment, the crime that you committed, the punishment is the sinners, the punishment is not to be sent into a prison and tortured. Thank you brother Herbert. We ask you to continue to support Rattling The Bars, the real news. Thank you.
Herbert Robinson:
Thank you man. Appreciate y’all for having me on. Enjoy rest of your day.
